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Yes, because everyone has that perfect negotiating power to do so. There are no school districts that are struggling or can only afford to pay so much for teach

by st3v3r 10y ago

Yes, because everyone has that perfect negotiating power to do so. There are no school districts that are struggling or can only afford to pay so much for teachers, and hospitals that can't afford higher salaries for nurses. The "invisible hand" is not what should be guiding society. The "invisible hand" has declared that it's more worthwhile to be a Kardashian than it is to be a teacher or nurse.

SamReidHughes 10y ago
> The "invisible hand" has declared that it's more worthwhile to be a Kardashian than it is to be a teacher or nurse. What you propose is to guide society by deliberately lowering the pay of teachers and nurses even more. So are you saying that the invisible hand is right? That a Kardashian should be expensive (which reduces how many are available) and that teachers should be cheap (meaning we can afford more of them)?
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "What you propose is to guide society by deliberately lowering the pay of teachers and nurses " No, I'm not. So your response has lost all credibility right there.
  - SamReidHughes 10y ago
    I proposed increasing their pay, or letting it increase, and you disagreed, so how are you not proposing to lower their pay? If you want more teachers, you can either increase budgets to pay them more, or you can use some artifice to increase the supply of teachers so that wages get suppressed. You implied having more teachers would be nice, with your comment about Kardashian. So your own views here are self-contradictory.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      No, you didn't. You proposed using the "invisible hand of the free market". I told you why most of us wouldn't trust that idea.
      - SamReidHughes 10y ago
        The text you're quoting is nowhere in this thread... Look, teacher pay is in control of the government, not the market. And nurse pay and nursing demand has already had demonstrable impact on students' selection of what to study. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.) Is there a particular hypothesis that you're arguing against? Is it that increasing pay won't attract students to the line of study? Do you disagree with the equation (Teaching Budget) = (Teacher Pay) * (Number Of Teachers) in a material way? In fact I ... wait a second. Me: > I proposed increasing their pay, You: > No, you didn't. Me (upthread): > let their salaries increase. Well now, looks like I did. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.)
        dredmorbius 10y ago
        You two are talking past each other. The response to your "let their salaries increase" pointed out that there are districts (and counties and states) where this simply does not and can not happen given how government policies are structured. Much of that the result of quite deliberate "starve-the-beast" anti-tax policies, but also frequently a simply quite inadequate economic base. In the deep south of the US, say, the state of Mississippi, you have a de-facto segregated school system. Whites, even poor whites, attend private schools, largely religious, known as "Segregation Academies". Public schools are almost wholly the domain of blacks. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-southern-towns-segregation-academies-are-still-going-strong/266207/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-south... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sunflower_County,_Mississippi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sun... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy Markets don't exist independent of power constructs, a fact explicitly recognised by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." Much of Smith's Wealth of Nations is about those dynamics. This thread reads as if two ideological agendas are being pushed on the other, rather than some seeking of greater truth. I'm finding your line of argument the less pesuasive and less sincere.
        SamReidHughes 10y ago
tn13 10y ago
Invisible hand is something I trust far more than anything else to guide the society. We need lot of teachers and nurses and that is possible only if they are cheap. If the teachers and nurses are expensive we will have few of them making education and healthcare more expensive. The probability that some celebrity would earn disproportionately more than a conventional career will always be 1 in a fairly free society. Even in sports like say sprinting 1 player often is far better than rest of others.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "Invisible hand is something I trust far more than anything else to guide the society." And I don't. The invisible hand has said that the Kardashians are more valuable than teachers. So to me, any argument that says the "invisible hand" should be used is completely invalid.

by st3v3r 10y ago

SamReidHughes 10y ago

> The "invisible hand" has declared that it's more worthwhile to be a Kardashian than it is to be a teacher or nurse. What you propose is to guide society by deliberately lowering the pay of teachers and nurses even more. So are you saying that the invisible hand is right? That a Kardashian should be expensive (which reduces how many are available) and that teachers should be cheap (meaning we can afford more of them)?

st3v3r 10y ago
"What you propose is to guide society by deliberately lowering the pay of teachers and nurses " No, I'm not. So your response has lost all credibility right there.
- SamReidHughes 10y ago
  I proposed increasing their pay, or letting it increase, and you disagreed, so how are you not proposing to lower their pay? If you want more teachers, you can either increase budgets to pay them more, or you can use some artifice to increase the supply of teachers so that wages get suppressed. You implied having more teachers would be nice, with your comment about Kardashian. So your own views here are self-contradictory.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    No, you didn't. You proposed using the "invisible hand of the free market". I told you why most of us wouldn't trust that idea.
    - SamReidHughes 10y ago
      The text you're quoting is nowhere in this thread... Look, teacher pay is in control of the government, not the market. And nurse pay and nursing demand has already had demonstrable impact on students' selection of what to study. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.) Is there a particular hypothesis that you're arguing against? Is it that increasing pay won't attract students to the line of study? Do you disagree with the equation (Teaching Budget) = (Teacher Pay) * (Number Of Teachers) in a material way? In fact I ... wait a second. Me: > I proposed increasing their pay, You: > No, you didn't. Me (upthread): > let their salaries increase. Well now, looks like I did. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.)
      - dredmorbius 10y ago
        You two are talking past each other. The response to your "let their salaries increase" pointed out that there are districts (and counties and states) where this simply does not and can not happen given how government policies are structured. Much of that the result of quite deliberate "starve-the-beast" anti-tax policies, but also frequently a simply quite inadequate economic base. In the deep south of the US, say, the state of Mississippi, you have a de-facto segregated school system. Whites, even poor whites, attend private schools, largely religious, known as "Segregation Academies". Public schools are almost wholly the domain of blacks. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-southern-towns-segregation-academies-are-still-going-strong/266207/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-south... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sunflower_County,_Mississippi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sun... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy Markets don't exist independent of power constructs, a fact explicitly recognised by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." Much of Smith's Wealth of Nations is about those dynamics. This thread reads as if two ideological agendas are being pushed on the other, rather than some seeking of greater truth. I'm finding your line of argument the less pesuasive and less sincere.
        SamReidHughes 10y ago

tn13 10y ago

Invisible hand is something I trust far more than anything else to guide the society. We need lot of teachers and nurses and that is possible only if they are cheap. If the teachers and nurses are expensive we will have few of them making education and healthcare more expensive. The probability that some celebrity would earn disproportionately more than a conventional career will always be 1 in a fairly free society. Even in sports like say sprinting 1 player often is far better than rest of others.

st3v3r 10y ago
"Invisible hand is something I trust far more than anything else to guide the society." And I don't. The invisible hand has said that the Kardashians are more valuable than teachers. So to me, any argument that says the "invisible hand" should be used is completely invalid.