9 ms·

"Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -- Clay Shirky This is brilliantly well put and one of the most important reaso

"Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -- Clay Shirky This is brilliantly well put and one of the most important reasons capitalism works so much better than any other system: destruction of the preserving institutions is built in to the process. "Too big to fail", on the other hand, is something completely different.

fakelvis 17y ago
It's worth noting that this Clay Shirky quote is a modern retelling of a classic Upton Sinclair quote from 1935: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" (I, Candidate For Governor: And How I Got Licked, p109—available on Google Books.)
greenlblue 17y ago
Are you serious? Capitalism is just as bad as anything else. The problem that capitalism perpetuates is the constant exploitation of the lower echelons. How is that so much better? Also, where is this built-in institutional destruction that you speak of?
- devinj 17y ago
  You're looking at the wrong end. He's saying that companies compete with each other and try to undercut one another, which allows some smaller companies to solve the problems allowed by the larger companies. These smaller companies rely on a problem still, but a smaller one (to convince people to switch, and thus get income, it must be smaller). And you're talking about something totally different as far as I can tell, so it's not a very good critique of his point.
  - greenlblue 17y ago
    You don't need capitalism to have what you just described. When people bundle economic and social principles together that's when capitalism turns into what I described because under the banner of capitalism politicians refuse any social policy that runs counter to free market principles. In fact half of capitol hill has made this their battle cry.
- cema 17y ago
  The problem that capitalism perpetuates is the constant exploitation of the lower echelons. "Under capitalism, people exploit people. Under socialism, it's the other way around!"
  - greenlblue 17y ago
    "People under people, exploit capitalism" - that makes no sense dude.
    - MHordecki 17y ago
      He probably meant that "people exploit people" phrase should be put the other way around, concluding that there's no difference in this aspect between capitalism and socialism at all.
    - cema 17y ago
      Actually, thinking about it, it does! "People under people" is a metaphorical description of a business, and they "exploit capitalism", that is, use it to their advantage, selling products and living off the profit. But, of course, that is not what the joke I quoted means. What it means is that, like Churchill's alleged saying about democracy goes, "it's the worst system except for all others". So far, anyway.
gruseom 17y ago
capitalism works so much better than any other system: destruction of the preserving institutions is built in to the process. Boy did you pick the wrong decade to argue this. (The point being that it's a weakness of capitalism, or at least of the contemporary system everybody calls capitalism, that institutions that would otherwise die off are able to preserve themselves through political influence and other unsavory means.)
- lotharbot 17y ago
  That's not a weakness of capitalism (an economic system), but a weakness in the way our regulatory agencies and legislatures interact (our political system). People who call themselves "capitalists" typically want to reform the political end of things so it stops distorting the economic system.
  - chrischen 17y ago
    Consider if government did not exist. A company can still use it's established might to artificially prolong it's existence. If any thing regulatory measures are actually designed to prevent this. Whether they are effective or not is a different story.
    - lotharbot 17y ago
      What regulation is supposed to do and what regulation actually does are two very different things. Again, people who call themselves "capitalists" would generally like to reform the regulatory/legislative system so that it supports, rather than distorts, the market.
      - dhs 17y ago
        From where I see it, it looks like people who call themselves capitalists would generally like to reform the regulatory/legislative system so that it only supports the capitalists.
  - Qz 17y ago

fakelvis 17y ago

It's worth noting that this Clay Shirky quote is a modern retelling of a classic Upton Sinclair quote from 1935: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" (I, Candidate For Governor: And How I Got Licked, p109—available on Google Books.)

greenlblue 17y ago

Are you serious? Capitalism is just as bad as anything else. The problem that capitalism perpetuates is the constant exploitation of the lower echelons. How is that so much better? Also, where is this built-in institutional destruction that you speak of?

devinj 17y ago
You're looking at the wrong end. He's saying that companies compete with each other and try to undercut one another, which allows some smaller companies to solve the problems allowed by the larger companies. These smaller companies rely on a problem still, but a smaller one (to convince people to switch, and thus get income, it must be smaller). And you're talking about something totally different as far as I can tell, so it's not a very good critique of his point.
- greenlblue 17y ago
  You don't need capitalism to have what you just described. When people bundle economic and social principles together that's when capitalism turns into what I described because under the banner of capitalism politicians refuse any social policy that runs counter to free market principles. In fact half of capitol hill has made this their battle cry.
cema 17y ago
The problem that capitalism perpetuates is the constant exploitation of the lower echelons. "Under capitalism, people exploit people. Under socialism, it's the other way around!"
- greenlblue 17y ago
  "People under people, exploit capitalism" - that makes no sense dude.
  - MHordecki 17y ago
    He probably meant that "people exploit people" phrase should be put the other way around, concluding that there's no difference in this aspect between capitalism and socialism at all.
  - cema 17y ago
    Actually, thinking about it, it does! "People under people" is a metaphorical description of a business, and they "exploit capitalism", that is, use it to their advantage, selling products and living off the profit. But, of course, that is not what the joke I quoted means. What it means is that, like Churchill's alleged saying about democracy goes, "it's the worst system except for all others". So far, anyway.

gruseom 17y ago

capitalism works so much better than any other system: destruction of the preserving institutions is built in to the process. Boy did you pick the wrong decade to argue this. (The point being that it's a weakness of capitalism, or at least of the contemporary system everybody calls capitalism, that institutions that would otherwise die off are able to preserve themselves through political influence and other unsavory means.)

lotharbot 17y ago
That's not a weakness of capitalism (an economic system), but a weakness in the way our regulatory agencies and legislatures interact (our political system). People who call themselves "capitalists" typically want to reform the political end of things so it stops distorting the economic system.
- chrischen 17y ago
  Consider if government did not exist. A company can still use it's established might to artificially prolong it's existence. If any thing regulatory measures are actually designed to prevent this. Whether they are effective or not is a different story.
  - lotharbot 17y ago
    What regulation is supposed to do and what regulation actually does are two very different things. Again, people who call themselves "capitalists" would generally like to reform the regulatory/legislative system so that it supports, rather than distorts, the market.
    - dhs 17y ago
      From where I see it, it looks like people who call themselves capitalists would generally like to reform the regulatory/legislative system so that it only supports the capitalists.
- Qz 17y ago