5 ms·

Ask YC: Learning Web Development, were should I start?

• davidw 19y ago
  Something like Django or Ruby on Rails would be a good platform. "Unfortunately" it hides a lot from you so you won't get to see what's actually going on. Maybe try writing a few CGI's just to see what's physically happening to get a feel for that aspect of things.
  • illicium 19y ago
    Pylons and CakePHP are also quite good frameworks, if you're into that kind of thing, but I'd also suggest writing something simple in PHP (which is pretty much still the webdev language these days),
• tel 19y ago
  Write a toy web server. It'll get you up to par with how the requests actually happen which is a good base for understanding CGI and the more complex systems.
  • bprater 19y ago
    He is just figuring out HTML. You are joking right?
    • tel 19y ago
      Of course not. It's practically requisite to understanding Rails or Django and is not so hard a project that you can't start to tackle it quickly (by reading any of the hundreds of simple web server tutorials online)
    • Zak 19y ago
      Reading through the source for a simple http server might be a good first step. srv.arc (the server that runs this site) is only 360 lines and is pretty readable without a deep understanding of Arc or Lisp.
    • mkumm 19y ago
      I actually agree. I have been programming for the web for about 8 years now and looking back, I wish that the web server had not been such a mystery - it would have been helpful.
• ahold 19y ago
  Join to some opensource project at sourceforge.net
• edw519 19y ago
  Find an on-line tutorial that walks you through every step (including installing the software). Don't worry so much about which technology; you can always change. To get an idea of what I mean, here's one (you can google many others): http://www.php-mysql-tutorial.com/ http://www.php-mysql-tutorial.com/ Here's another oldie, but goodie: http://webmonkey.com/webmonkey/programming/php/tutorials/tutorial4.html http://webmonkey.com/webmonkey/programming/php/tutorials/tut... You didn't say which platform you're on, but you could save yourself a lot of trouble by installing an "all in one" LAMP distro, even on Windows.
• rrival 19y ago
  Spend some time on intro cs theory/topics - freelance PHP 'scripters' whose understanding of structured logic is abysmal are everywhere and they tend to start with HTML and go horribly astray.
• iamelgringo 19y ago
  I had a similar issue a year or so ago. I tried to jump right in to a web framework, but I ran into a few problems. Like so much in the technology world, web frameworks grew in response to a certain set of problems. If you dive into web frameworks without having a least a rudimentary understanding of the problems that are being solved, you'll end up puzzled more often than not. So, when I picked up a bunch of Rails books, and started to work through them. So much of it was confounding, because so much of Rails is developed in response to problems in PHP + Java web development. You could just say, "Screw it all," pick up a PHP book and dive in head first. You'll pick up some pretty bad habits along the way, but it depends on how you like to learn. Here's a syllabus that I'd suggest to really get your head around web programming and understand what's going on: HTTP--learn the basics of what the protocol does, and why. Learn the different response pages, because they are going to be your error messages. Web servers--you just need a 100 ft overview. Learn how to setup and configure a web server. Programming--You need to pick a language, Python or Ruby and learn how to at least do some basic programming with it. I'd recommend Python, personally. It's more explicit, and has less "magic". You probably need to understand variables, iteration or looping. You need to understand some basics of the object oriented programming concepts like methods, classes and scoping. And, if you're going to get into any of the web frameworks, you need to understand what things like a dictionary and array are. At least a basic understanding of regular expressions are necessary to learn Django's URL naming convention. The better you know programming itself, the better web developer you'll be, and more things will become possible for you to program. CGI -- This is the ancestor to pretty much all dynamic web pages, and the foundation of most web development. Pick the language that you're learning, and go through some tutorials on CGI scripting for the language you're going to focus on. And, this will help you understand the basics of what goes on in the address bar, GET and POST methods of the HTTP protocol. You'll also get familiar with the idea of taking variables and inserting them into HTML templates dynamically, which is the basis of most web frameworks. Learn SQL, and database basics. You need to understand what a database is, how to create a database, why databases are important, how to create and drop tables, how to do queries, etc... Having at least a basic understanding of relationships, foreign keys and constraints is helpful when reading some of the web framework documentation. You really should understand how to do a query in SQL, just so you can understand what the web framework is doing for you. Finally, pick up a web framework, and start to work through it. After learning the above, learning the web framework will tend to make a lot more sense than if you dive into a web framework deep end first. Pick the framework that's most popular for your language, that way, you can be assured you will have plenty of documentation to work with. I'd recommend Django for Python, and Rails for Ruby. Lather, rinse, repeat. Iterate through the above steps, and learn more and more each time you approach each subject.
• rapind 19y ago
  Ruby on Rails. I recommend following a screencast tutorial, like the ones at lynda.com http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=324 http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=324 Sure rails hides a lot but it'll introduce you to some best practices, like the concept of MVC etc.
  • nickb 19y ago
    I agree. Rails is currently the way to go. It's much more mature than Django and has more flexibility and more mature gems/plugins. Lynda tutorials are great. I'd also recommend free ones: http://railscasts.com/ http://railscasts.com/ http://www.akitaonrails.com/2008/2/1/rolling-with-rails-2-0-pdf-version http://www.akitaonrails.com/2008/2/1/rolling-with-rails-2-0-... And for-pay ones at http://www.peepcode.com http://www.peepcode.com Also, grab "The Rails Way" book by Obie Fernandez (it's THE BEST book on Rails.. when you learn the basics, it's better than 'Agile Web Development with Rails') and "The Ruby Way" by Hal Fulton.
    • comatose_kid 19y ago
      I'll second the suggestion for "The Ruby Way" - it's under-rated and deserves more attention. I've heard good things about "The Rails Way" but haven't yet had a chance to look at it.
      • jamesbritt 19y ago
        Rails Way is pretty good (though someone borrowed my copy before I could spend much more time perusing it). I also suggest The Ruby Way (though perhaps I'm biased); however, the Web dev section is dated. :(
    • mrtron 19y ago
      Rails is much more mature than Django? Please provide some sort of evidence surrounding that, instead of stating it as fact. First, let's start with the languages they are based on, since performance and scalability depends on this. Do you feel Ruby is more mature than Python too?
• topcoder8 19y ago
  My advice is to pick a language and go from there. Start with either PHP, Ruby or Python. Once you are comfortable with the inner workings of the language, then move forward with an agile development framework. Depending on which language you finally chose you will find open source frameworks for each: Ruby: Ruby on Rail, Merb PHP: CakePHP Python: Django I truly think that understanding the language itself will help a lot before jumping into the framework.
• ivankirigin 19y ago
  With a framework like Django, you don't really need to know SQL. It helps to understand the backend, but you basically design the tables based on Python classes. That's how I learned, it and it got me far enough to already launch tipjoy.com I already knew a good amount of Python though. djangoproject.com
• lowfat 19y ago
  Hi, I asked a similar question a month ago and got some great advice. Check it out: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=90782 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=90782.
• henning 19y ago
  There's multiple things you want to learn: 1. How to program (hack) 2. How to hack on the web 3. How to create application databases for your web stuff I suggest tackling each of these separately in turn if possible, starting with #1. Python and Ruby both make great beginner's languages. Be goal-oriented. Once you know your way around a little, worry less about having the right technology and more about getting things done. Create something that you can use every day, like a blog, a calendar program, or something like that. Ignore all the "X is better than Y" talk on the Internet and just work hard on getting stuff done: that's all that really matters.
• a-priori 19y ago
  I think everyone else here has covered the specifics fairly well. The best advice I can give is to remember that you're at the start of a long road. You need treat it as such. No matter how smart you are (or think you are), it will take you long time to learn everything you need. Persevere. Err on the side of learning more than you need. You'll find later that knowledge will be useful. Be curious.
• tjr 19y ago
  http://philip.greenspun.com/seia/ http://philip.greenspun.com/seia/
• Tichy 19y ago
  You could also check out arc.
• Prrometheus 19y ago
  HTML
• jkkramer 19y ago
  I'd start by coming up with a project, a goal. What are your interests? Gaming, sports, cooking, art? Decide to make something web-based that pertains to whatever interests you have. Doesn't matter if you're reinventing the wheel. Now, start creating. Learn the necessary technologies as you go along, mixing in healthy doses of theory and best practices when you get the feeling there's a better way to do what you're trying. It's hard to learn technologies in isolation, when they have no meaningful connection to problems you're solving. So give yourself an interesting challenge that can be overcome with the tools you want to learn. If you're using automated tools along the way (installers, package managers, code scaffolding), consider doing what the tools do for you manually. Unravel things and get closer to the metal until you're satisfied. Consider sharing the source code of your project with others. Maybe nobody will take notice, but it will give you motivation to make your code beautiful. As far as specifics, Python strikes a nice balance among power, maturity, and marketability. MySQL is standard. Be sure to "unravel" your DB code into SQL without just relying on framework magic.
• bprater 19y ago
  Blah, blah, blah. I think most of these recommendations are from 15-year-olds who just read about a cool web framework and are now spouting how damn good it is. Anyone recommending a framework before someone understands web programming isn't someone I would hire. Frameworks are where you go when you finally get what is missing with your web programming language. It might take you years to get to that point. Go with PHP. Period. People are going to blah, blah, blah about how PHP gives you bad habits, has bad function naming, ran off with their kid sister, whatever. PHP is a mess but it works. Name a webpage .php and you are good to get going. Try that with Ruby. PHP is a tool that gets the job done and let's you quickly become immersed in web programming. If you don't know your GET from your POST, a great Ruby framework ain't gonna help you. Once you get PHP figured out (and now are employable as a programmer?), try Python or Ruby out. They are gorgeous, elegant languages. I love using both of them. Then slap a great framework like Django or Merb on top. You'll love it. But only after you get the basics down. I'm ashamed at you guys, really.
  • edw519 19y ago
    +1 for content. -1 for attitude. We're even.
  • tel 19y ago
    You already called this argument, but... ... if you can avoid PHP. It will do all those things mentioned above, and more and more Python and Ruby are becoming common.
  • doubleplus 19y ago
    Before I got to this, I was wondering if anyone was going to mention PHP. I'm at the exact same stage as the OP and I'm just going with PHP (and learning MySQL simultaneously). I do want to play with Python eventually, but my first goal is to actually be able to find a job doing this stuff by the end of the year. Plus, even though every virtual human I run across has been programming RoR since 1963, everyone I know in meatspace uses PHP... and those are the people I'll be bugging for help. Go to your local craigslist web/info design job page and run a search for PHP and count how many ads come up. Then run searches for Python and Ruby. That's enough help for me when it comes to making a decision.
• mikesabat 19y ago
  This seems to be the most asked question on YC, by far. This may be impossible (which would explain why it doesn't exist) but can someone put together the quickstart guide "Learning to Web Develop"? 1-2 page exec summaries of popular languages and the specific problems they solve. Include links to resources that explain things further. It would help to get a snapshot from 1000 ft. above the situation. There is definitely a need here. Thanks
• cjlesh 19y ago
  If you want to give Django a try, you might want to check out my simple tutorial: http://www.instantdjango.com http://www.instantdjango.com It includes a portable Django development environment for Windows, no installation required, and it even runs from a USB thumb drive. The tutorial walks you through creating a simple website, and explains what is happening each step of the way. The website is overdue for some updates, and I really need to finish writing the second chapter, but you might find it an interesting way to spend 45 minutes.
• wamboldt 19y ago
  I recommend PHP, and SQL, using MySQL/PHP/Apache/Linux. For an editor, I recommend Bluefish. After that, go with Perl(Old style, but it has it's uses) and then Python. Ruby is the next step after that. W3Schools is a good place to start learning, but the best way to learn is by doing.
• german 19y ago
  Thanks a lot, not it's time to start learning. I'll let you know how is it going. :)
• deleted 19y ago
  [deleted]
  • german 19y ago
    Thanks, I'm aware that logic is an absolutely must. I do program but I'm not familiar with server side programming. For me programming is all about Logic.
• ecarder 19y ago
  PHP is the best web programming tool to start with!!!
  • pchristensen 19y ago
    I'm sure you'll get downvoted for that because of the l33t crowd here, but I'd have to agree that if you don't know conventional programming, a super straightforward language like PHP is better for learning web programming, as opposed to languages like Python/Ruby that are general purpose languages suited to programming.
• tzury 19y ago
  SQL is a language that will take you half a day to learn and you will use it for the rest of your life. Since it varies from platform to platform you better pick the one you are going to use (Postgres, mySQL, etc.) -- Don't fall into those ORM which hides the database behind a "nice" api. for programming I would suggest you Python. The best place to start is by looking at http://webpy.org http://webpy.org which is a compact yet robust web framework in Python. good-luck