5 ms·

Yuck. Old black and white photos, emotional appeal to some sort of corporate heritage. Posturing as some sort of victim. Only thing missing is a tiny violin

Yuck. Old black and white photos, emotional appeal to some sort of corporate heritage. Posturing as some sort of victim. Only thing missing is a tiny violin playing on that webpage. Apple's been paying virtually no tax for years because it's argued it's legal to do so. Now the EC deems it was illegal. GG WP - you lose. Time to pay up now. I'm sure due to the amounts involved that this potential event was in someone's "risks" column and hasn't come completely out of the blue for Apple.

DrJokepu 10y ago
According to the letter Apple is the largest taxpayer in Ireland, in the United States and in the world, surely that statement is incompatible with the statement that "they've been paying virtually no tax for years". One of these statements must be false.
- Slartie 10y ago
  Not at all - there's some clever wording at play here. Apple may well be the "largest" taxpayer in the world. But that doesn't require that they are the singular entity paying the largest total sum of taxes. It's pretty common to measure the size of corporations by market value - Apple is pretty much the "largest" corporation by that measurement, and since they do pay some taxes (a laughable amount, but it nevertheless wins them this checkmark) they technically are a taxpayer, too.
- hamax 10y ago
  If I'm paying VAT, it doesn't mean I can stop paying income tax.
  - sjwright 10y ago
    It does... if said government passes a law that says individuals that fit certain criteria are exempt from income tax.
- Infinitesimus 10y ago
  If tax is % of revenue (def simplified for corporations) - does it matter if they paid the most if they make the most money? I haven't confined that they have the largest revenues, but paying the most is a weak argument in the face of what the governing body decides as what is a "fair" amount to pay. Whether or not this decision is fair is another conversation altogether...
- sigzero 10y ago
  The OP is wrong. He is just regurgitating misinformation.
- sveme 10y ago
  Maybe they are talking about their employee's income tax, capital gains tax of shareholders, VAT etc. Smokescreen. Disingenuous.
- gambiting 10y ago
  Because people have this weird notion that everyone should pay the exact same proportional amount of taxes. So if I pay 20% of my income as taxes and someone rich pays 10%, it doesn't matter that his 10% is few million dollars. It's like renting an apartment for $1000/month, and having a roommate that pays $900 a month - and then insisting that he is not paying his fair share because $900 is only 1% of his income, while the remaining $100 is 20% of yours.
- brewdad 10y ago
  I'm sure they are counting all of the taxes paid by their employees. I've seen other large corporations use the same language and logic when justifying special tax exemptions.
  - sjwright 10y ago
    If what you say is true, that wouldn't be a case of slippery language, but rather an outright lie. Taxes paid by their employees (your words) would be by definition not included in a summation of taxes paid by Apple. Therefore, [citation needed]
    - NLips 10y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/18/uk-uncut-targets-starbucks-tax https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/18/uk-uncut-ta...
      - sjwright 10y ago
        I was thinking rather a citation that Apple used the language in the way you refer.
        NLips 10y ago
        Fair enough - I mistook what you said as refering to the " I've seen other large corporations..." section.
- ctz 10y ago
  Apple is probably referring mainly to VAT and employee payroll taxes. However, the EU action is only concerned with corporation taxes. Apple confuses the issue by convolving the two.
- Scirra_Tom 10y ago
  They use absolutes when it suits them. It's not about paying the most, it's about paying a percentage. When I say virtually no tax, I mean the relationship between the % they pay and the % everyone else pays.
- bertil 10y ago
  Apple pays VAT, employment tax in Ireland and certainly a couple more. They avoid paying corporate tax by using a Irish sandwich Double Dutch tax structure (where you create subsidiaries of subsidiaries, and pretend all the value creation happened in over-seas territories where corporate tax is negligible). Apple is probably right in saying that the total of VAT, employee tax, etc. is the largest in Ireland, the US and World: they are the largest company in the world, so that statement should be fairly obvious. If someone who makes 1M$ per year pays 0.5% taxes, he still pays more than someone who pay 20% of their 24k$. That’s why this statement is seen as disingenuous: the ratio to your revenue is was matters. The European Commission, the vast majority of observers and almost all Hacker News members are right in saying that they paid virtually no (0.005%) corporate tax, because that was the point of the statements they made to tax authorities around the world. On whether what Apple did was legal: the stated that their all their value creation happened in the Dutch Antilles, which is patently false. That is nothing short of lying on your tax form. The Irish government accepted it because they were strong-armed into accepting that or seeing jobs go elsewhere. That type of coercion is also something that this letter lies about. In the US, John Oliver pretending he is the Head of a Church whose main tenet is his personal enrichment is widely accepted as a legal, and deserving of a tax break; in the EU, such statements are considered disingenuous (that’s the fancy word for “bullshit”) and treated accordingly.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    > Apple pays VAT That is incorrect. Apple doesn't pay VAT, they offset any notional VAT bill against the total of VAT collected from customers and pass-through the residue to the revenue agency. Generally, each such trader in the chain of supply from manufacturer through to retailer charges VAT on his or her sales and is entitled to deduct from this amount the VAT paid on his or her purchases. http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/ http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/ The non-corporate end-user is stuck with paying VAT because they're not 'adding value'.
    - bertil 10y ago
      You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. However, I’d be surprised if Apple buys enough things in Ireland to offset the sales of iPhones in Europe.
singularity2001 10y ago
>>> Yuck... Thanks for eloquently wrapping my initial reaction: "DISGUSTING"!
tdkl 10y ago
> Only thing missing is a tiny violin playing on that webpage. Or narration by Sir Jony Ive.
- themihai 10y ago
  SJI: What makes Apple so unique, is how much it pays in taxes... We began with a sweetheart deal that we really like...
sjwright 10y ago
You say "yuck" but that open letter does contain more than just a few historical points. Set aside the "emotional" stuff and there are some statements worth taking seriously. "we have become the largest taxpayer in Ireland, the largest taxpayer in the United States, and the largest taxpayer in the world." An impressive feat for a company that has around 13% of the smartphone market and 7% of the computer market. Yes they're a big company with lots of revenues, but I find it hard to believe that if Apple was so aggressively dodging tax that they'd still be the world's largest taxpayer. "the vast majority of our profits are taxed in the United States" Is this true? Are a majority of Apple's profits taxed in the United States at normal business tax rates? If so, that would put the flurry of accusations into some degree of proportionality. "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." "It is effectively proposing to replace Irish tax laws with a view of what the Commission thinks the law should have been." Which if this is the case, the UN has a problem with Ireland's laws, not with Apple. This is the first piece of news that has made me wonder if the UK was right to brexit.
- twoodfin 10y ago
  Last year, Apple had $72.5B in worldwide pre-tax profits and paid $19.1B in US corporate income taxes. That's an effective rate of ~26%, even thought > 60% of their revenue is from sales outside the US. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL
  - sjwright 10y ago
    Wow, those numbers really put all this into perspective.
verbify 10y ago
Kudos for them for finding that photo. I bet the guy who dug it up is getting high-fives all round and is feeling really smug. Tries to promote the idea that Apple (who put 'Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China' on every phone) is as Irish as Guinness.
dev_256 10y ago
> Only thing missing is a tiny violin playing on that webpage. Done http://hadalin.me/apple-customer-letter/ http://hadalin.me/apple-customer-letter/

DrJokepu 10y ago

According to the letter Apple is the largest taxpayer in Ireland, in the United States and in the world, surely that statement is incompatible with the statement that "they've been paying virtually no tax for years". One of these statements must be false.

Slartie 10y ago
Not at all - there's some clever wording at play here. Apple may well be the "largest" taxpayer in the world. But that doesn't require that they are the singular entity paying the largest total sum of taxes. It's pretty common to measure the size of corporations by market value - Apple is pretty much the "largest" corporation by that measurement, and since they do pay some taxes (a laughable amount, but it nevertheless wins them this checkmark) they technically are a taxpayer, too.
hamax 10y ago
If I'm paying VAT, it doesn't mean I can stop paying income tax.
- sjwright 10y ago
  It does... if said government passes a law that says individuals that fit certain criteria are exempt from income tax.
Infinitesimus 10y ago
If tax is % of revenue (def simplified for corporations) - does it matter if they paid the most if they make the most money? I haven't confined that they have the largest revenues, but paying the most is a weak argument in the face of what the governing body decides as what is a "fair" amount to pay. Whether or not this decision is fair is another conversation altogether...
sigzero 10y ago
The OP is wrong. He is just regurgitating misinformation.
sveme 10y ago
Maybe they are talking about their employee's income tax, capital gains tax of shareholders, VAT etc. Smokescreen. Disingenuous.
gambiting 10y ago
Because people have this weird notion that everyone should pay the exact same proportional amount of taxes. So if I pay 20% of my income as taxes and someone rich pays 10%, it doesn't matter that his 10% is few million dollars. It's like renting an apartment for $1000/month, and having a roommate that pays $900 a month - and then insisting that he is not paying his fair share because $900 is only 1% of his income, while the remaining $100 is 20% of yours.
brewdad 10y ago
I'm sure they are counting all of the taxes paid by their employees. I've seen other large corporations use the same language and logic when justifying special tax exemptions.
- sjwright 10y ago
  If what you say is true, that wouldn't be a case of slippery language, but rather an outright lie. Taxes paid by their employees (your words) would be by definition not included in a summation of taxes paid by Apple. Therefore, [citation needed]
  - NLips 10y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/18/uk-uncut-targets-starbucks-tax https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/18/uk-uncut-ta...
    - sjwright 10y ago
      I was thinking rather a citation that Apple used the language in the way you refer.
      - NLips 10y ago
        Fair enough - I mistook what you said as refering to the " I've seen other large corporations..." section.
ctz 10y ago
Apple is probably referring mainly to VAT and employee payroll taxes. However, the EU action is only concerned with corporation taxes. Apple confuses the issue by convolving the two.
Scirra_Tom 10y ago
They use absolutes when it suits them. It's not about paying the most, it's about paying a percentage. When I say virtually no tax, I mean the relationship between the % they pay and the % everyone else pays.
bertil 10y ago
Apple pays VAT, employment tax in Ireland and certainly a couple more. They avoid paying corporate tax by using a Irish sandwich Double Dutch tax structure (where you create subsidiaries of subsidiaries, and pretend all the value creation happened in over-seas territories where corporate tax is negligible). Apple is probably right in saying that the total of VAT, employee tax, etc. is the largest in Ireland, the US and World: they are the largest company in the world, so that statement should be fairly obvious. If someone who makes 1M$ per year pays 0.5% taxes, he still pays more than someone who pay 20% of their 24k$. That’s why this statement is seen as disingenuous: the ratio to your revenue is was matters. The European Commission, the vast majority of observers and almost all Hacker News members are right in saying that they paid virtually no (0.005%) corporate tax, because that was the point of the statements they made to tax authorities around the world. On whether what Apple did was legal: the stated that their all their value creation happened in the Dutch Antilles, which is patently false. That is nothing short of lying on your tax form. The Irish government accepted it because they were strong-armed into accepting that or seeing jobs go elsewhere. That type of coercion is also something that this letter lies about. In the US, John Oliver pretending he is the Head of a Church whose main tenet is his personal enrichment is widely accepted as a legal, and deserving of a tax break; in the EU, such statements are considered disingenuous (that’s the fancy word for “bullshit”) and treated accordingly.
- dingaling 10y ago
  > Apple pays VAT That is incorrect. Apple doesn't pay VAT, they offset any notional VAT bill against the total of VAT collected from customers and pass-through the residue to the revenue agency. Generally, each such trader in the chain of supply from manufacturer through to retailer charges VAT on his or her sales and is entitled to deduct from this amount the VAT paid on his or her purchases. http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/ http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/ The non-corporate end-user is stuck with paying VAT because they're not 'adding value'.
  - bertil 10y ago
    You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. However, I’d be surprised if Apple buys enough things in Ireland to offset the sales of iPhones in Europe.

singularity2001 10y ago

>>> Yuck... Thanks for eloquently wrapping my initial reaction: "DISGUSTING"!

tdkl 10y ago

> Only thing missing is a tiny violin playing on that webpage. Or narration by Sir Jony Ive.

themihai 10y ago
SJI: What makes Apple so unique, is how much it pays in taxes... We began with a sweetheart deal that we really like...

sjwright 10y ago

You say "yuck" but that open letter does contain more than just a few historical points. Set aside the "emotional" stuff and there are some statements worth taking seriously. "we have become the largest taxpayer in Ireland, the largest taxpayer in the United States, and the largest taxpayer in the world." An impressive feat for a company that has around 13% of the smartphone market and 7% of the computer market. Yes they're a big company with lots of revenues, but I find it hard to believe that if Apple was so aggressively dodging tax that they'd still be the world's largest taxpayer. "the vast majority of our profits are taxed in the United States" Is this true? Are a majority of Apple's profits taxed in the United States at normal business tax rates? If so, that would put the flurry of accusations into some degree of proportionality. "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." "It is effectively proposing to replace Irish tax laws with a view of what the Commission thinks the law should have been." Which if this is the case, the UN has a problem with Ireland's laws, not with Apple. This is the first piece of news that has made me wonder if the UK was right to brexit.

twoodfin 10y ago
Last year, Apple had $72.5B in worldwide pre-tax profits and paid $19.1B in US corporate income taxes. That's an effective rate of ~26%, even thought > 60% of their revenue is from sales outside the US. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL
- sjwright 10y ago
  Wow, those numbers really put all this into perspective.

verbify 10y ago

Kudos for them for finding that photo. I bet the guy who dug it up is getting high-fives all round and is feeling really smug. Tries to promote the idea that Apple (who put 'Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China' on every phone) is as Irish as Guinness.

dev_256 10y ago

> Only thing missing is a tiny violin playing on that webpage. Done http://hadalin.me/apple-customer-letter/ http://hadalin.me/apple-customer-letter/