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> ... the attrition rate form an elite law or med school tends to be well below one half of one percent. Attrition rates form elite engineering and science PhD

> ... the attrition rate form an elite law or med school tends to be well below one half of one percent. Attrition rates form elite engineering and science PhD programs range from 35%-50%. Many PhD programs offer full tuition, health care, and a yearly stipend with teaching duties. OTOH, there may be less incentive to give someone the boot if they're bringing in large sums of money by paying their way through, which is how most master's and professional degrees work (as I understand).

geebee 10y ago
I don't have information about attrition rates on MS programs in STEM. The only thing I've read was a summary of a paywalled publication that put overall attrition from STEM MS degrees at about 30%. I don't know if that applies to elite programs (elite law schools have much lower attrition than lower tier programs). At Berkeley, where I was a grad student, 25% or so seems about right, but not sure how much help that is. In short, I strongly suspect that attrition rates from MS programs in STEM fields is still an order of magnitude (edit: two orders of magnitude) higher than from elite law and med schools - but then again, attrition rates from those programs is close to zero. It's a tough comparison of course, in that the degree itself is a very different beast. Half of a med or law degree doesn't help you, a strong student with a BA in History can't skip law school and just go be a lawyer, whereas anyone who can get into MIT's CS PhD program is already almost certainly capable of getting a good paying job. So attrition does mean different things. That said, we are a nation that officially (by that, I mean our top elected officials, most of whom are lawyers) fret loudly and constantly, often with a tech CEO at their side, about the shortage of US citizens getting graduate degrees, especially PhDs, in STEM fields. I have never heard one of them ask why a 50% attrition rate in some programs isn't part of the problem. I think this is because, as lawyers, they think that elite PhD programs in STEM are kind of sort of like the elite law schools they attended. There is legislation, for instance, to "staple a green card" to all PhD degrees in STEM fields. I can't argue that these talented people should be excluded from the US, nor would I want to. But if we're so short on PhD holders in STEM, to the point where we need to empower US universities to bestow green cards upon STEM graduate degree recipients (but not other fields, it has to be STEM)... shouldn't we at least ask them why they're throwing out half the class? Test scores and grades for the students who drop out or fail out are sky high, elite law and med schools don't seem to have a problem getting everyone through the program. This is a lot of power with very little accountability. US STEM PhD programs need to change if they are going to attract highly talented people with the freedom to choose their careers, unencumbered by visa restrictions, and I'm not really in favor of giving them special powers to avoid that reckoning.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>Many PhD programs offer full tuition, health care, and a yearly stipend with teaching duties. Do we have data showing that entry-level jobs (the first three to five years) in STEM industries have 35-50% attrition rates?
- geebee 10y ago
  I'd guess the attrition rate is higher than that. Just a guess though. Would also be interesting to see if the attrition rate is mainly transferring to a different field rather vs. changing jobs within the same field.

geebee 10y ago

I don't have information about attrition rates on MS programs in STEM. The only thing I've read was a summary of a paywalled publication that put overall attrition from STEM MS degrees at about 30%. I don't know if that applies to elite programs (elite law schools have much lower attrition than lower tier programs). At Berkeley, where I was a grad student, 25% or so seems about right, but not sure how much help that is. In short, I strongly suspect that attrition rates from MS programs in STEM fields is still an order of magnitude (edit: two orders of magnitude) higher than from elite law and med schools - but then again, attrition rates from those programs is close to zero. It's a tough comparison of course, in that the degree itself is a very different beast. Half of a med or law degree doesn't help you, a strong student with a BA in History can't skip law school and just go be a lawyer, whereas anyone who can get into MIT's CS PhD program is already almost certainly capable of getting a good paying job. So attrition does mean different things. That said, we are a nation that officially (by that, I mean our top elected officials, most of whom are lawyers) fret loudly and constantly, often with a tech CEO at their side, about the shortage of US citizens getting graduate degrees, especially PhDs, in STEM fields. I have never heard one of them ask why a 50% attrition rate in some programs isn't part of the problem. I think this is because, as lawyers, they think that elite PhD programs in STEM are kind of sort of like the elite law schools they attended. There is legislation, for instance, to "staple a green card" to all PhD degrees in STEM fields. I can't argue that these talented people should be excluded from the US, nor would I want to. But if we're so short on PhD holders in STEM, to the point where we need to empower US universities to bestow green cards upon STEM graduate degree recipients (but not other fields, it has to be STEM)... shouldn't we at least ask them why they're throwing out half the class? Test scores and grades for the students who drop out or fail out are sky high, elite law and med schools don't seem to have a problem getting everyone through the program. This is a lot of power with very little accountability. US STEM PhD programs need to change if they are going to attract highly talented people with the freedom to choose their careers, unencumbered by visa restrictions, and I'm not really in favor of giving them special powers to avoid that reckoning.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>Many PhD programs offer full tuition, health care, and a yearly stipend with teaching duties. Do we have data showing that entry-level jobs (the first three to five years) in STEM industries have 35-50% attrition rates?

geebee 10y ago
I'd guess the attrition rate is higher than that. Just a guess though. Would also be interesting to see if the attrition rate is mainly transferring to a different field rather vs. changing jobs within the same field.