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I am not too sure how I feel about this. On the one hand I do think Apple (and many other companies) should pay more taxes. However on the other hand Ireland e

by satysin 10y ago

I am not too sure how I feel about this. On the one hand I do think Apple (and many other companies) should pay more taxes. However on the other hand Ireland enticed many big companies to their country on the promise of lower tax. You can't blame Apple for taking advantage of such an offer. They followed the letter of the [Irish] law as far as I can tell (unless someone can correct me?). I think this could end up being terrible for Ireland in the longer term. Then again perhaps the EU knows that they can't really go anywhere else now so will just have to put up with the new rates or not do business? It is far from a cut and dry situation IMHO.

denis1 10y ago
That is the entire point of this article though. Apple didn't follow Irish laws (where Irish law = EU laws + laws created by the Irish parliament). They followed a deal with the Irish government that was actually against the Irish law.
creshal 10y ago
> However on the other hand Ireland enticed many big companies to their country on the promise of lower tax. You can't blame Apple for taking advantage of such an offer. They followed the letter of the [Irish] law as far as I can tell (unless someone can correct me?). There's two separate issues. One, Ireland is cutting taxes far below the EU average to attract all companies they can. That's a dick move, but welcome to politics, it's fully legal. Two, Apple has received further tax breaks on top of that, reducing their tax rate from a crippling, communist 1% to an effective 0.005%. The European Commission found only the second deal to be illegal, and Apple just has to repay the tax difference to the regular Irish levels. Ireland is still a tax haven, just slightly less unfairly advantageously to Apple.
- patrickaljord 10y ago
  > Ireland is cutting taxes far below the EU average to attract all companies they can. That's a dick move Allowing people and their companies to keep more of their money while creating tons of jobs in a high unemployment country. What a dick move indeed. /s
  - creshal 10y ago
    > people and their companies Oh? Apple, Google and other US-based multinationals are owned by their European employees? > creating tons of jobs in a high unemployment country Less creating, more shifting them from other countries. It benefits Ireland at the expense of the rest of the Union.
    - FilterSweep 10y ago
      I'd also argue there's very little "Creating" OR "Shifting" going on from Apple in this tax haven. They can keep the vast "majority" of the (read: "well paid") jobs in Cupertino with Stanford, UCBerkeley, CalTech, etc grads. All the while reaping the tax haven benefits abroad.[0] [0] Found a better source, 6.5K employees in Ireland: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/25pc-of-apples-european-workforce-based-in-cork-30487720.html http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/25pc-of-apples-euro... , with 1000 to be added by 2017. Their center in Cork, Ireland is a distribution base, which is different than the product design, R&D, and development that goes on in America. Compared to the amount, in billions, of taxes avoided, the "Tons of jobs" grandparent is claiming doesn't seem to be true.
    - patrickaljord 10y ago
      They hired 6,000 people across Ireland. http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/ http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/
belorn 10y ago
If you make a deal with a government to pay 0.005% taxes where all other corporations in the same country pays 12.5%, you might want to suspect that something is wrong. Even if you are not paying bribes, it does not pass the smell test.
- wonder_er 10y ago
  It passes the "business at scale" test. How much do you pay when you buy an iPhone? How much do you think a business that gives iPhones to its employees pays per iPhone? If they pay half of what you pay, per phone, is it unfair? Sure. maybe there's a 50% spread between those price points. But they still pay orders of magnitude more money to Apple than you do. .00005% of $big_pile_of_money is a better deal to Ireland than 10% of $0, because Apple HQ'd elsewhere.

by satysin 10y ago

denis1 10y ago

That is the entire point of this article though. Apple didn't follow Irish laws (where Irish law = EU laws + laws created by the Irish parliament). They followed a deal with the Irish government that was actually against the Irish law.

creshal 10y ago

> However on the other hand Ireland enticed many big companies to their country on the promise of lower tax. You can't blame Apple for taking advantage of such an offer. They followed the letter of the [Irish] law as far as I can tell (unless someone can correct me?). There's two separate issues. One, Ireland is cutting taxes far below the EU average to attract all companies they can. That's a dick move, but welcome to politics, it's fully legal. Two, Apple has received further tax breaks on top of that, reducing their tax rate from a crippling, communist 1% to an effective 0.005%. The European Commission found only the second deal to be illegal, and Apple just has to repay the tax difference to the regular Irish levels. Ireland is still a tax haven, just slightly less unfairly advantageously to Apple.

patrickaljord 10y ago
> Ireland is cutting taxes far below the EU average to attract all companies they can. That's a dick move Allowing people and their companies to keep more of their money while creating tons of jobs in a high unemployment country. What a dick move indeed. /s
- creshal 10y ago
  > people and their companies Oh? Apple, Google and other US-based multinationals are owned by their European employees? > creating tons of jobs in a high unemployment country Less creating, more shifting them from other countries. It benefits Ireland at the expense of the rest of the Union.
  - FilterSweep 10y ago
    I'd also argue there's very little "Creating" OR "Shifting" going on from Apple in this tax haven. They can keep the vast "majority" of the (read: "well paid") jobs in Cupertino with Stanford, UCBerkeley, CalTech, etc grads. All the while reaping the tax haven benefits abroad.[0] [0] Found a better source, 6.5K employees in Ireland: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/25pc-of-apples-european-workforce-based-in-cork-30487720.html http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/25pc-of-apples-euro... , with 1000 to be added by 2017. Their center in Cork, Ireland is a distribution base, which is different than the product design, R&D, and development that goes on in America. Compared to the amount, in billions, of taxes avoided, the "Tons of jobs" grandparent is claiming doesn't seem to be true.
  - patrickaljord 10y ago
    They hired 6,000 people across Ireland. http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/ http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/

belorn 10y ago

If you make a deal with a government to pay 0.005% taxes where all other corporations in the same country pays 12.5%, you might want to suspect that something is wrong. Even if you are not paying bribes, it does not pass the smell test.

wonder_er 10y ago
It passes the "business at scale" test. How much do you pay when you buy an iPhone? How much do you think a business that gives iPhones to its employees pays per iPhone? If they pay half of what you pay, per phone, is it unfair? Sure. maybe there's a 50% spread between those price points. But they still pay orders of magnitude more money to Apple than you do. .00005% of $big_pile_of_money is a better deal to Ireland than 10% of $0, because Apple HQ'd elsewhere.