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6% of total Irish national debt... I wonder how much Irelands payroll taxes would have been were the corporations not to have set up shop in Ireland, they woul

by beilabs 10y ago

6% of total Irish national debt... I wonder how much Irelands payroll taxes would have been were the corporations not to have set up shop in Ireland, they would have just gone somewhere with a decent tax arrangement. Unemployment in the 70's and 80's was brutal in Ireland, personally, I think the government at the time made the right choice, however, this "selective treatment" allowed Apple to pay tax rate of 1% on European Union profits in 2003 down to 0.005% in 2014, FFS.

legulere 10y ago
> I wonder how much Irelands payroll taxes would have been were the corporations not to have set up shop in Ireland, they would have just gone somewhere with a decent tax arrangement. A better question is where the world would be if nation states wouldn't allow multinational companies to pay only negligible taxes by taking part in a race to the bottom. With tax deals like this one you're just ripping other countries off.
- Radim 10y ago
  Even better question is, where the world would be if evolution wouldn't allow individual organisms to optimize their fitness by taking part in a race to the bottom? That constant pressure to do more with less... deadly. With "beneficial" (sic) mutations like this one you're just ripping other organisms off.
  - legulere 10y ago
    The race to the bottom doesn't optimize fitness though. It relies on being globally unsustainable and just works by parasitically draining all business from the rest of the world. Ireland isn't somehow magically fitter than other countries and thus able to offer 0.005% corporate tax. It's only relying on attracting an above-normal amount of companies by having low taxes and draining other countries of their tax benefits in the same turn. It wouldn't work if everybody was doing it. In fact countries would just turn to shit.
    - Radim 10y ago
      I fail to see where the analogy breaks, from your description. It seems to fit like a glove, with ruthless disregard for any kind of sustainability, draining parasitic/symbiotic relationships and all.
- refurb 10y ago
  by taking part in a race to the bottom You mean countries competing for business? Why is that bad? It would sound ridiculous if you applied it to companies "Car companies offering lower and lower prices is just a race to the bottom! If this keeps up we'll have no car companies as they'll all be bankrupt!".
  - legulere 10y ago
    Countries are not companies. Also your comparison is pretty bad. The direct cost per unit is pretty high for a car in a car company, the one for a company in a country is negligible. So it's more like a publisher selling digital goods, except that there's no copyright, preventing the others from selling exactly the same for a lower price.
    - refurb 10y ago
      Countries provide a service (infrastructure, social programs, court system) based on a price (taxes). There is a floor for those costs. There is a minimal amount of tax required to provide those services. I think it's a bad idea to tell a country that they can't charge a lower price (taxes) in order to sell more business (have companies move there).
      - legulere 10y ago
        > There is a minimal amount of tax required to provide those services. And you can go lower than that amount if you attract an abnormal amount of companies through an abnormally low tax.
        refurb 10y ago
        You could have a lower tax rate and make it up with volume, but you can't go below a certain tax revenue and still keep a level of infrastructure or social programs. Overall I'm happy that gov'ts have to compete for companies. It's a great way to force them to be more efficient. If they never have to worry about their spending, why would they ever control it?
toyg 10y ago
You can't begrudge Ireland for trying to get ahead when things were really bad. However, they've long reached a point where tax dumping is not morally justifiable. They were repeatedly told to sort it out, and got off the hook a bit only because of 2008. Now they're back on their feet, it's time to come clean. Next, Luxembourg and Netherlands.
- beilabs 10y ago
  I'm not sure that they Ireland is back on its feet. Unemployment is still high in certain areas. The bank bailout crippled the country, forced really high taxes on those who really shouldn't have been held accountable (low income earners). That said, Apple (and many other mult-nationals) seized an opportunity and ran with it. The moral responsibility to pay taxes should be on the CEO and the board.
threeseed 10y ago
In 2003, Apple made a profit of $69 million. In 2014, Apple made a profit of $78.5 billion. That would explain why the percentage went a lot lower.

by beilabs 10y ago

legulere 10y ago

> I wonder how much Irelands payroll taxes would have been were the corporations not to have set up shop in Ireland, they would have just gone somewhere with a decent tax arrangement. A better question is where the world would be if nation states wouldn't allow multinational companies to pay only negligible taxes by taking part in a race to the bottom. With tax deals like this one you're just ripping other countries off.

Radim 10y ago
Even better question is, where the world would be if evolution wouldn't allow individual organisms to optimize their fitness by taking part in a race to the bottom? That constant pressure to do more with less... deadly. With "beneficial" (sic) mutations like this one you're just ripping other organisms off.
- legulere 10y ago
  The race to the bottom doesn't optimize fitness though. It relies on being globally unsustainable and just works by parasitically draining all business from the rest of the world. Ireland isn't somehow magically fitter than other countries and thus able to offer 0.005% corporate tax. It's only relying on attracting an above-normal amount of companies by having low taxes and draining other countries of their tax benefits in the same turn. It wouldn't work if everybody was doing it. In fact countries would just turn to shit.
  - Radim 10y ago
    I fail to see where the analogy breaks, from your description. It seems to fit like a glove, with ruthless disregard for any kind of sustainability, draining parasitic/symbiotic relationships and all.
refurb 10y ago
by taking part in a race to the bottom You mean countries competing for business? Why is that bad? It would sound ridiculous if you applied it to companies "Car companies offering lower and lower prices is just a race to the bottom! If this keeps up we'll have no car companies as they'll all be bankrupt!".
- legulere 10y ago
  Countries are not companies. Also your comparison is pretty bad. The direct cost per unit is pretty high for a car in a car company, the one for a company in a country is negligible. So it's more like a publisher selling digital goods, except that there's no copyright, preventing the others from selling exactly the same for a lower price.
  - refurb 10y ago
    Countries provide a service (infrastructure, social programs, court system) based on a price (taxes). There is a floor for those costs. There is a minimal amount of tax required to provide those services. I think it's a bad idea to tell a country that they can't charge a lower price (taxes) in order to sell more business (have companies move there).
    - legulere 10y ago
      > There is a minimal amount of tax required to provide those services. And you can go lower than that amount if you attract an abnormal amount of companies through an abnormally low tax.
      - refurb 10y ago
        You could have a lower tax rate and make it up with volume, but you can't go below a certain tax revenue and still keep a level of infrastructure or social programs. Overall I'm happy that gov'ts have to compete for companies. It's a great way to force them to be more efficient. If they never have to worry about their spending, why would they ever control it?

toyg 10y ago

You can't begrudge Ireland for trying to get ahead when things were really bad. However, they've long reached a point where tax dumping is not morally justifiable. They were repeatedly told to sort it out, and got off the hook a bit only because of 2008. Now they're back on their feet, it's time to come clean. Next, Luxembourg and Netherlands.

beilabs 10y ago
I'm not sure that they Ireland is back on its feet. Unemployment is still high in certain areas. The bank bailout crippled the country, forced really high taxes on those who really shouldn't have been held accountable (low income earners). That said, Apple (and many other mult-nationals) seized an opportunity and ran with it. The moral responsibility to pay taxes should be on the CEO and the board.

threeseed 10y ago

In 2003, Apple made a profit of $69 million. In 2014, Apple made a profit of $78.5 billion. That would explain why the percentage went a lot lower.