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What about coding bootcamps? Aren't they worse? They try to make you a "coder" in a couple of months and promise people jobs if they finish the course. It sound

by electic 10y ago

What about coding bootcamps? Aren't they worse? They try to make you a "coder" in a couple of months and promise people jobs if they finish the course. It sounds eerily the same thing as ITT...

madlynormal 10y ago
One of the recent members of my team was from a bootcamp, she's been a real joy to work with and has mad some decent contributions. Bootcamps may serve their purpose but like with anything else YMMV.
jmharvey 10y ago
I'd imagine it depends on the "bootcamp." It seems like many of the more reputable ones don't charge tuition and make their money on referral agreements for successful placements.
- rahimnathwani 10y ago
  "It seems like many of the more reputable ones don't charge tuition" The only one I know which doesn't charge is 42. Are there others? Which ones?
  - ajdlinux 10y ago
    App Academy charges its tuition as a proportion of first year salary.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - bhaumik 10y ago
      + a $5000 upfront deposit. We* do the opposite and offer a 100% refund if the student isn't employed as a developer within 6 months of graduation. As for the original comment, some coding bootcamps are starting to publish stats on graduate rate/outcomes (a few of which are also 3rd-party audited). The industry as a whole still has some bad eggs, but it's getting better. https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/25/students-are-demanding-the-facts-about-coding-bootcamps/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/25/students-are-demanding-the... *https://www.thinkful.com https://www.thinkful.com
      - ameen 10y ago
        While I'm not really big on "Online Bootcamps", I'd like to see metrics or even success stories from Thinkful. What real-world skills does a typical Thinkful grad possess?
        bhaumik 10y ago
        Sure, here are some 3rd-party verified metrics: https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp-jobs-stats/ https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp-jobs-stats/. Students focus on web development in JavaScript, specifically React & Node. I run our Full Time program where students gain experience in "thinking" like an engineer as they learn a new skill on their own (enough to present it to the group) during "Flex week", work on polishing the features of an unfinished app during "Swap week", collaborate in a larger team in the 3 week "capstone project" where they divide responsibilities and assign clear roles, develop wireframes/specs, and join daily standups led by our instructors to prioritize features/descope when needed. You can dig more into the curriculum/day-to-day schedule here: https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp/web-development/full-time/ https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp/web-development/full-time/. If you have questions not answered or clarified enough by that page, you can reach me by email (in bio) for anything else. Always welcome to constructive feedback as this specific program is only 7 months old.
    - kbredemeier 10y ago
      Holberton School[1] does not charge anything up front either, but takes a percentage of salary once placed in a job. If we want to make software engineering and computer science accessible to everyone, I think adopting this type of model is a great idea. We need more diverse minds in the tech industry and this is one way to do it. [1] https://www.holbertonschool.com https://www.holbertonschool.com
    - kbredemeier 10y ago
      Holberton School[1] does not charge anything up front either, but takes a percentage of salary once placed in a job. If we want to make software engineering and computer science accessible to everyone, I think adopting this type of model is a great idea. We need more diverse minds in the tech industry and this is one way to do it. [1] https://www.holbertonschool.com https://www.holbertonschool.com
findjashua 10y ago
Depends on the bootcamp. Some of the best candidates I've interviewed graduated from hack reactor.
sandmansandine 10y ago
It looks like BPPE has their eye on them as well, at least they did in 2014 http://www.wired.com/2014/01/california-hacker-bootcamps/ http://www.wired.com/2014/01/california-hacker-bootcamps/
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  That's not an "as well", BPPE is the California government agency that acted here. An article with more details, including a link to a full copy of the emergency order, is here: https://consumerist.com/2016/08/29/california-bars-itt-tech-from-enrolling-new-students/ https://consumerist.com/2016/08/29/california-bars-itt-tech-...
abritinthebay 10y ago
The major difference between bootcamps and this sort of enterprise is that bootcamps don't pretend they are as good as a regular college. In fact many are quite proud of not being that.
jmcgough 10y ago
Depends a lot on the bootcamp, and how motivated the person participant is. Some of my coworkers are bootcamp graduates and all are fantastic. I met someone when I was at college who went to ITT and said that he paid $30k and learned nothing from unqualified instructors, he felt (and clearly was) scammed.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  I mean, that was also my experience with my degree from a major university. I told them I wanted to be a computer programmer, they said "Oh, you want a Computer Science major, then." I didn't realize until after graduating that I'd learned about electrical engineering and processor architecture and compiler design and lots and lots of math, but almost no actual, y'know, computer programming. Pretty much had to start from scratch to make an actual career.
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    But...if you learn all that stuff, isn't programming pretty easy? It's just specific abstractions on top of the fundamentals you already know... (I don't mean to be dismissive, I'm honestly mystified by your perspective here.)
    - neffy 10y ago
      Not really. Usually you get to learn all that stuff, and you get to learn programming doing the assignments, and projects. But there are some places out there that teach a very theoretical course, so unless students seek out programming experience they won´t get it. Programming is hard, and for some people it´s hard bordering on impossible. A surprising number of the latter still manage to get CS degrees.
      - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
        It does bother me that it's seen as normal that students should have to seek programming experience on their own time. From my point of view, I was "seeking programming experience" by going to class all the damn time. I feel like I was lied to, basically.
swingbridge 10y ago
I think it's hard to lump them all into one bucket. One still needs to be quite ambitious and have a good CV going into the bootcamp, but I've seen people come out of these programs that have landed good job. Are they the world's best coders, no but they know enough to join a team and add value.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  The same could be said for many graduates of ITT Tech style schools!
bbarn 10y ago
I feel like the people who excel after coding bootcamps would have excelled without them. Self starting, picking things up quickly, and looking for a good deal aren't bad traits to have in general. Lots of people I know that have crossed the "General IT dude threshold" to development via a coding bootcamp.
- hajile 10y ago
  Networking can be hard when you don't already know someone. I'd imagine that for the people you describe, having someone handle the first contact pushes their career forward very quickly.
ryuker16 10y ago
the ones that have hard requirements of tech experience or skills seemed to do alright.

by electic 10y ago

What about coding bootcamps? Aren't they worse? They try to make you a "coder" in a couple of months and promise people jobs if they finish the course. It sounds eerily the same thing as ITT...

madlynormal 10y ago

One of the recent members of my team was from a bootcamp, she's been a real joy to work with and has mad some decent contributions. Bootcamps may serve their purpose but like with anything else YMMV.

jmharvey 10y ago

I'd imagine it depends on the "bootcamp." It seems like many of the more reputable ones don't charge tuition and make their money on referral agreements for successful placements.

rahimnathwani 10y ago
"It seems like many of the more reputable ones don't charge tuition" The only one I know which doesn't charge is 42. Are there others? Which ones?
- ajdlinux 10y ago
  App Academy charges its tuition as a proportion of first year salary.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - bhaumik 10y ago
    + a $5000 upfront deposit. We* do the opposite and offer a 100% refund if the student isn't employed as a developer within 6 months of graduation. As for the original comment, some coding bootcamps are starting to publish stats on graduate rate/outcomes (a few of which are also 3rd-party audited). The industry as a whole still has some bad eggs, but it's getting better. https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/25/students-are-demanding-the-facts-about-coding-bootcamps/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/25/students-are-demanding-the... *https://www.thinkful.com https://www.thinkful.com
    - ameen 10y ago
      While I'm not really big on "Online Bootcamps", I'd like to see metrics or even success stories from Thinkful. What real-world skills does a typical Thinkful grad possess?
      - bhaumik 10y ago
        Sure, here are some 3rd-party verified metrics: https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp-jobs-stats/ https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp-jobs-stats/. Students focus on web development in JavaScript, specifically React & Node. I run our Full Time program where students gain experience in "thinking" like an engineer as they learn a new skill on their own (enough to present it to the group) during "Flex week", work on polishing the features of an unfinished app during "Swap week", collaborate in a larger team in the 3 week "capstone project" where they divide responsibilities and assign clear roles, develop wireframes/specs, and join daily standups led by our instructors to prioritize features/descope when needed. You can dig more into the curriculum/day-to-day schedule here: https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp/web-development/full-time/ https://www.thinkful.com/bootcamp/web-development/full-time/. If you have questions not answered or clarified enough by that page, you can reach me by email (in bio) for anything else. Always welcome to constructive feedback as this specific program is only 7 months old.
  - kbredemeier 10y ago
    Holberton School[1] does not charge anything up front either, but takes a percentage of salary once placed in a job. If we want to make software engineering and computer science accessible to everyone, I think adopting this type of model is a great idea. We need more diverse minds in the tech industry and this is one way to do it. [1] https://www.holbertonschool.com https://www.holbertonschool.com
  - kbredemeier 10y ago
    Holberton School[1] does not charge anything up front either, but takes a percentage of salary once placed in a job. If we want to make software engineering and computer science accessible to everyone, I think adopting this type of model is a great idea. We need more diverse minds in the tech industry and this is one way to do it. [1] https://www.holbertonschool.com https://www.holbertonschool.com

findjashua 10y ago

Depends on the bootcamp. Some of the best candidates I've interviewed graduated from hack reactor.

sandmansandine 10y ago

It looks like BPPE has their eye on them as well, at least they did in 2014 http://www.wired.com/2014/01/california-hacker-bootcamps/ http://www.wired.com/2014/01/california-hacker-bootcamps/

dragonwriter 10y ago
That's not an "as well", BPPE is the California government agency that acted here. An article with more details, including a link to a full copy of the emergency order, is here: https://consumerist.com/2016/08/29/california-bars-itt-tech-from-enrolling-new-students/ https://consumerist.com/2016/08/29/california-bars-itt-tech-...

abritinthebay 10y ago

The major difference between bootcamps and this sort of enterprise is that bootcamps don't pretend they are as good as a regular college. In fact many are quite proud of not being that.

jmcgough 10y ago

Depends a lot on the bootcamp, and how motivated the person participant is. Some of my coworkers are bootcamp graduates and all are fantastic. I met someone when I was at college who went to ITT and said that he paid $30k and learned nothing from unqualified instructors, he felt (and clearly was) scammed.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
I mean, that was also my experience with my degree from a major university. I told them I wanted to be a computer programmer, they said "Oh, you want a Computer Science major, then." I didn't realize until after graduating that I'd learned about electrical engineering and processor architecture and compiler design and lots and lots of math, but almost no actual, y'know, computer programming. Pretty much had to start from scratch to make an actual career.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  But...if you learn all that stuff, isn't programming pretty easy? It's just specific abstractions on top of the fundamentals you already know... (I don't mean to be dismissive, I'm honestly mystified by your perspective here.)
  - neffy 10y ago
    Not really. Usually you get to learn all that stuff, and you get to learn programming doing the assignments, and projects. But there are some places out there that teach a very theoretical course, so unless students seek out programming experience they won´t get it. Programming is hard, and for some people it´s hard bordering on impossible. A surprising number of the latter still manage to get CS degrees.
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
      It does bother me that it's seen as normal that students should have to seek programming experience on their own time. From my point of view, I was "seeking programming experience" by going to class all the damn time. I feel like I was lied to, basically.

swingbridge 10y ago

I think it's hard to lump them all into one bucket. One still needs to be quite ambitious and have a good CV going into the bootcamp, but I've seen people come out of these programs that have landed good job. Are they the world's best coders, no but they know enough to join a team and add value.

sanderjd 10y ago
The same could be said for many graduates of ITT Tech style schools!

bbarn 10y ago

I feel like the people who excel after coding bootcamps would have excelled without them. Self starting, picking things up quickly, and looking for a good deal aren't bad traits to have in general. Lots of people I know that have crossed the "General IT dude threshold" to development via a coding bootcamp.

hajile 10y ago
Networking can be hard when you don't already know someone. I'd imagine that for the people you describe, having someone handle the first contact pushes their career forward very quickly.

ryuker16 10y ago

the ones that have hard requirements of tech experience or skills seemed to do alright.