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I never said I didn't appreciate it but context also matters. Tactics matter, I agree, but so do intentions. Russia has more to lose than America has to gain. I

I never said I didn't appreciate it but context also matters. Tactics matter, I agree, but so do intentions. Russia has more to lose than America has to gain. If Ukraine joins NATO, Russian then borders NATO. Ukraine is essentially their queen on the European front. There would be no Ukraine crisis if we hadn't courted ex-Warsaw pact countries into NATO in the first place. You need to appreciate that, unless you think Russia should be destroyed. I'm an advocate for peace and balance so we would subjectively disagree at that juncture. There is a reason we gave Poland to Russia after WW2. Buffer countries ease tensions between superpowers.

dntrkv 10y ago
Of course context matters, and I fully understand that no country here is innocent, but it is important to gauge the severity of one action over another. In this case, the US is making allies with Russia's neighbors, and Russia is annexing another country. Do you agree that Russia's actions are much more severe than the US's? One could also argue that Russia's actions in this instance has sped up the exact thing they do not want (more countries joining NATO). What was the ideal outcome for Putin in Crimea? Ruin relationships with Ukraine and the US while scaring many bordering neighbors into joining NATO and/or building up their military? For what? As for wanting Russia destroyed, why would I wish that on my home country? I love Russia and its culture and ~5 years ago I was excited to finally see the relations between Russia and the US finally maturing and opening up to one another. Putin's terrible decision in Crimea (among others) has ruined any chance of that happening anytime soon.
- saynsedit 10y ago
  Yes Russia's actions were more severe, that much is true. I'm simply putting it into context. Ukraine is of the utmost importance, so I can see severe circumstances culminating in severe actions. Again, these present circumstances were slowly aggravated by the US over the passed 20 years, that can't just be ignored. There are lots more chapters to this story that we haven't even discussed. I don't see Russia offensively invading other countries right now, Ukraine seems more like a defensive move after lots of US-led political meddling in Ukraine specifically (this is NOT normal http://youtu.be/AmkvO_IwsZ0 http://youtu.be/AmkvO_IwsZ0). When Russia initiates unprovoked military invasions on other countries (which some publications have speculated on) then I will gladly unilaterally condemn their foreign policy. Right now it all seems very gray.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    How are you still denying that a covert military operation to seize land from another country is the very definition of an unprovoked military invasion. Unless "provocation" to you includes "they started to like America?"
    - saynsedit 10y ago
      Ukraine was in total disarray due to a violent revolution to depose its democratically elected president. The Russian annexation, i.e. intervention, was arguably done to stabilize the situation on their part. A referendum was held after the fact. Not to mention that Crimea was previously a Russian subject not 60 years prior. I don't see this as unprovoked in the same vein as the invasion of Iraq, for instance. The Ukrainian conflict is ineffably more complicated than they "started to like America." This sort of thinking is not productive when trying to make sense of world events. There are lots of factors at play here, economic, cultural, historical, political, and so forth. This has been my only thesis from my OP. If you disagree with me, you're saying the Ukraine situation is as simple as Putin being an evil invader. I think that is a flawed, incomplete, and unproductive analysis of the situation. If you are interpreting me as defending Russia you are totally missing the point.
deleted 10y ago
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dntrkv 10y ago

Of course context matters, and I fully understand that no country here is innocent, but it is important to gauge the severity of one action over another. In this case, the US is making allies with Russia's neighbors, and Russia is annexing another country. Do you agree that Russia's actions are much more severe than the US's? One could also argue that Russia's actions in this instance has sped up the exact thing they do not want (more countries joining NATO). What was the ideal outcome for Putin in Crimea? Ruin relationships with Ukraine and the US while scaring many bordering neighbors into joining NATO and/or building up their military? For what? As for wanting Russia destroyed, why would I wish that on my home country? I love Russia and its culture and ~5 years ago I was excited to finally see the relations between Russia and the US finally maturing and opening up to one another. Putin's terrible decision in Crimea (among others) has ruined any chance of that happening anytime soon.

saynsedit 10y ago
Yes Russia's actions were more severe, that much is true. I'm simply putting it into context. Ukraine is of the utmost importance, so I can see severe circumstances culminating in severe actions. Again, these present circumstances were slowly aggravated by the US over the passed 20 years, that can't just be ignored. There are lots more chapters to this story that we haven't even discussed. I don't see Russia offensively invading other countries right now, Ukraine seems more like a defensive move after lots of US-led political meddling in Ukraine specifically (this is NOT normal http://youtu.be/AmkvO_IwsZ0 http://youtu.be/AmkvO_IwsZ0). When Russia initiates unprovoked military invasions on other countries (which some publications have speculated on) then I will gladly unilaterally condemn their foreign policy. Right now it all seems very gray.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  How are you still denying that a covert military operation to seize land from another country is the very definition of an unprovoked military invasion. Unless "provocation" to you includes "they started to like America?"
  - saynsedit 10y ago
    Ukraine was in total disarray due to a violent revolution to depose its democratically elected president. The Russian annexation, i.e. intervention, was arguably done to stabilize the situation on their part. A referendum was held after the fact. Not to mention that Crimea was previously a Russian subject not 60 years prior. I don't see this as unprovoked in the same vein as the invasion of Iraq, for instance. The Ukrainian conflict is ineffably more complicated than they "started to like America." This sort of thinking is not productive when trying to make sense of world events. There are lots of factors at play here, economic, cultural, historical, political, and so forth. This has been my only thesis from my OP. If you disagree with me, you're saying the Ukraine situation is as simple as Putin being an evil invader. I think that is a flawed, incomplete, and unproductive analysis of the situation. If you are interpreting me as defending Russia you are totally missing the point.

deleted 10y ago

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