5 ms·

"Tesla also has an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty for the Drive Train & Battery. This was great, as I did have the drive train replaced at about 65,000 mile

by tinco 10y ago

"Tesla also has an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty for the Drive Train & Battery. This was great, as I did have the drive train replaced at about 65,000 miles and the battery replaced at about 76,000 miles." You can read this as: "Tesla also has an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty for the engine and fuel tank. This was great, as I did have the engine replaced at about 65,000 miles and the fuel tank replaced at about 76,000 miles." That just makes it that much crazier. The most important and expensive components of this car actually do break down fairly quickly, but the manufacturer just covers them under a lifetime warranty!

Tloewald 10y ago
Right — assuming people bought their cars and used them normally (10-15k per year), having to replace the battery and drive train for say 50% of cars under warranty would be pretty die. He's also quite likely effectively free-riding on the supercharger system.
- mikeash 10y ago
  If Tesla's costs for electricity are similar to mine (a big assumption, I know), then that 27,615 mile trip cost them about $1,100. With 20+% margins on $70,000+ cars, I think they're doing OK on that end. I don't think his experience with the battery and drivetrain are typical. I've heard that earlier cars had a lot of drivetrain replacements, but not so much recently. And when Tesla replaces them, it's often because of a simple problem and it's just easier to throw in a new one than to fix the existing one on site. They then ship the old one back to the factory, refurbish it, and use it for another replacement. I haven't heard much about battery replacements under warranty. From what I do hear, most people with high-mileage Model Ss are still doing great with their batteries.
- nickff 10y ago
  How is it "free-riding"? He paid good money for the car, and the supercharger subscription is a part of the package.
  - Tloewald 10y ago
    He's presumably using a lot more power than was assumed. There's nothing wrong with it (and heck, he's free publicity for Tesla), but if everyone did it then it wouldn't work. "What if everyone behaved that way Yossarian?"
cma 10y ago
Yeah.. having to have the complete drive train and battery replaced really undermines this: > The Tesla isn’t a typical prissy $100,000 car. It’s meant to be driven, and driven hard. It’s not just a daily driver, it’s a high performance yet practical and extremely safe car. It’s better than a traditional car in so many categories it’s fall down funny. Makes it sound like you almost have to drive it it hard to be sure to wear out the motor and battery before the 8 years is up so you can get the free replacement (extrapolating from his anecdote, to assume many have to get both replaced at 76,000 miles; probably not valid to extrapolate, but the whole post was encouraging others to extrapolate on the positives by giving his low maintenance costs, etc.). The door handle replacement costs seem outrageous too; I wonder if the energy-efficiency savings from them over the fleet makes up for the total labor/other-costs involved in producing and repairing them. (disclaimer: I own some TSLA stock)
NickM 10y ago
The fact that the entire drivetrain was replaced sounds bad, unless you understand the unique way that Tesla handles service. Their cars are actually designed so the drivetrain can very easily be removed and replaced, so when there's any kind of problem, they just go ahead and replace the whole thing for the sake of expediency. Then they can refurbish the damaged drive unit on their own schedule and use it to repair the next car that comes in with drivetrain problems. Because of this, they'll sometimes replace the whole drivetrain for something as minor as an odd sound. A drivetrain replacement doesn't mean the same thing that it does with your typical gas car. Similar deal with the battery pack. It just drops right out of the bottom of the car, so it makes for a better service experience if they can just replace it and give the car straight back rather than leaving the owner without a car while they embark on a potentially lengthy repair process.
- tardo99 10y ago
  I wonder if that's a good way to do business if Tesla wants to generate a profit in a few years. Seems very pricey.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    Assuming they've made it easy to swap out, it might actually be significantly cheaper. Repairs can be done at a central location, by experts who do it all day long. Customers are back on the road quickly and happily.
- olyjohn 10y ago
  Swapping out the drivetrain for minor issues is great when the car is under warranty. But what about when the warranty is up? What is the bill going to look like to replace all that? When they start putting in, as you say, refurbed parts that already had 70,000 miles on them, will they really be as good as new?
  - DiabloD3 10y ago
    Tesla knows that fucking people is bad for business. Even when you're #1, it's how you quickly not be #1. Even when you collude with your "competitors" in the #2 and #3 spots to make sure #4 is always very far away, #4 eventually becomes #1 after enough tries (and, usually, after enough #4s). Tesla most likely will charge something that makes Detroit look bad. A Tesla drivetrain has a fraction of the complexity and parts a gas or diesel vehicle has. Also, the Model S drivetrain is somewhat the first of it's kind. There have been single speed transmissions made before in cars (in and out of electric vehicles), there have been high torque transmissions made (for vehicles much larger than a Model S), but nothing quite like the unique problem the Model S presents. The oldest Model Ses are now on their 4th year of warranty. Presumably, most failures so far have been in the first production revision of the product, and given the highly iterative nature of Tesla's product workflow, they have improved the product based on real world feedback. I don't want to know what the first generation drivetrain failure rate is, as they will be covered under the 8 year/unlimited miles warranty, and replaced with the newest revisions. I want to know what today's drivetrains will look like in 4 to 8 years. Also, in comparison, most vehicles don't last longer than 8 years. Most people will have put over 100 thousand miles on their vehicle at that point, most vehicles start falling apart just over the 125 thousand miles line, unless you've been very meticulous about babying your vehicle. Tesla's bet is that massively reducing the number of parts and complexity of said parts will dramatically cut down on failure. This is a long term bet, and early analysis of the first generation of Model Ses only paints half the picture. The whole picture seems to illustrate that Tesla is very good at iterative design, something Detroit does not value as a skill. Edit: As a side note, I live in Maine. Maybe we're just especially hard on vehicles up here.
jameshart 10y ago
I dunno, does a Tesla even have what you could call a 'drivetrain'? Isn't there basically just a motor bolted to each drive wheel?
- marvin 10y ago
  There's a single motor (or two, for the 4WD versions), plus axle(s) to the powered wheels. Some consider the battery to be part of the drivetrain also.
a_thro_away 10y ago
I understand they recalled all the drivetrains. And will likely do it until all the engineering secrets have been uncovered and solved. I don't see it as a big deal, just part of bringing a highly engineered (accelerated, disruptive) and breakthrough product to market. Another way, do you think the automotive industry got where it is in 10 years? They had oil cloth for windows.
makomk 10y ago
They have to cover them under a long warranty, because otherwise people wouldn't want to buy their cars. Imagine if Tesla owners like him started getting repair bills for tens of thousands of dollars in a regular basis. Hugely damaging to the brand.

by tinco 10y ago

Tloewald 10y ago

Right — assuming people bought their cars and used them normally (10-15k per year), having to replace the battery and drive train for say 50% of cars under warranty would be pretty die. He's also quite likely effectively free-riding on the supercharger system.

mikeash 10y ago
If Tesla's costs for electricity are similar to mine (a big assumption, I know), then that 27,615 mile trip cost them about $1,100. With 20+% margins on $70,000+ cars, I think they're doing OK on that end. I don't think his experience with the battery and drivetrain are typical. I've heard that earlier cars had a lot of drivetrain replacements, but not so much recently. And when Tesla replaces them, it's often because of a simple problem and it's just easier to throw in a new one than to fix the existing one on site. They then ship the old one back to the factory, refurbish it, and use it for another replacement. I haven't heard much about battery replacements under warranty. From what I do hear, most people with high-mileage Model Ss are still doing great with their batteries.
nickff 10y ago
How is it "free-riding"? He paid good money for the car, and the supercharger subscription is a part of the package.
- Tloewald 10y ago
  He's presumably using a lot more power than was assumed. There's nothing wrong with it (and heck, he's free publicity for Tesla), but if everyone did it then it wouldn't work. "What if everyone behaved that way Yossarian?"

cma 10y ago

Yeah.. having to have the complete drive train and battery replaced really undermines this: > The Tesla isn’t a typical prissy $100,000 car. It’s meant to be driven, and driven hard. It’s not just a daily driver, it’s a high performance yet practical and extremely safe car. It’s better than a traditional car in so many categories it’s fall down funny. Makes it sound like you almost have to drive it it hard to be sure to wear out the motor and battery before the 8 years is up so you can get the free replacement (extrapolating from his anecdote, to assume many have to get both replaced at 76,000 miles; probably not valid to extrapolate, but the whole post was encouraging others to extrapolate on the positives by giving his low maintenance costs, etc.). The door handle replacement costs seem outrageous too; I wonder if the energy-efficiency savings from them over the fleet makes up for the total labor/other-costs involved in producing and repairing them. (disclaimer: I own some TSLA stock)

NickM 10y ago

The fact that the entire drivetrain was replaced sounds bad, unless you understand the unique way that Tesla handles service. Their cars are actually designed so the drivetrain can very easily be removed and replaced, so when there's any kind of problem, they just go ahead and replace the whole thing for the sake of expediency. Then they can refurbish the damaged drive unit on their own schedule and use it to repair the next car that comes in with drivetrain problems. Because of this, they'll sometimes replace the whole drivetrain for something as minor as an odd sound. A drivetrain replacement doesn't mean the same thing that it does with your typical gas car. Similar deal with the battery pack. It just drops right out of the bottom of the car, so it makes for a better service experience if they can just replace it and give the car straight back rather than leaving the owner without a car while they embark on a potentially lengthy repair process.

tardo99 10y ago
I wonder if that's a good way to do business if Tesla wants to generate a profit in a few years. Seems very pricey.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  Assuming they've made it easy to swap out, it might actually be significantly cheaper. Repairs can be done at a central location, by experts who do it all day long. Customers are back on the road quickly and happily.
olyjohn 10y ago
Swapping out the drivetrain for minor issues is great when the car is under warranty. But what about when the warranty is up? What is the bill going to look like to replace all that? When they start putting in, as you say, refurbed parts that already had 70,000 miles on them, will they really be as good as new?
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  Tesla knows that fucking people is bad for business. Even when you're #1, it's how you quickly not be #1. Even when you collude with your "competitors" in the #2 and #3 spots to make sure #4 is always very far away, #4 eventually becomes #1 after enough tries (and, usually, after enough #4s). Tesla most likely will charge something that makes Detroit look bad. A Tesla drivetrain has a fraction of the complexity and parts a gas or diesel vehicle has. Also, the Model S drivetrain is somewhat the first of it's kind. There have been single speed transmissions made before in cars (in and out of electric vehicles), there have been high torque transmissions made (for vehicles much larger than a Model S), but nothing quite like the unique problem the Model S presents. The oldest Model Ses are now on their 4th year of warranty. Presumably, most failures so far have been in the first production revision of the product, and given the highly iterative nature of Tesla's product workflow, they have improved the product based on real world feedback. I don't want to know what the first generation drivetrain failure rate is, as they will be covered under the 8 year/unlimited miles warranty, and replaced with the newest revisions. I want to know what today's drivetrains will look like in 4 to 8 years. Also, in comparison, most vehicles don't last longer than 8 years. Most people will have put over 100 thousand miles on their vehicle at that point, most vehicles start falling apart just over the 125 thousand miles line, unless you've been very meticulous about babying your vehicle. Tesla's bet is that massively reducing the number of parts and complexity of said parts will dramatically cut down on failure. This is a long term bet, and early analysis of the first generation of Model Ses only paints half the picture. The whole picture seems to illustrate that Tesla is very good at iterative design, something Detroit does not value as a skill. Edit: As a side note, I live in Maine. Maybe we're just especially hard on vehicles up here.

jameshart 10y ago

I dunno, does a Tesla even have what you could call a 'drivetrain'? Isn't there basically just a motor bolted to each drive wheel?

marvin 10y ago
There's a single motor (or two, for the 4WD versions), plus axle(s) to the powered wheels. Some consider the battery to be part of the drivetrain also.

a_thro_away 10y ago

I understand they recalled all the drivetrains. And will likely do it until all the engineering secrets have been uncovered and solved. I don't see it as a big deal, just part of bringing a highly engineered (accelerated, disruptive) and breakthrough product to market. Another way, do you think the automotive industry got where it is in 10 years? They had oil cloth for windows.

makomk 10y ago

They have to cover them under a long warranty, because otherwise people wouldn't want to buy their cars. Imagine if Tesla owners like him started getting repair bills for tens of thousands of dollars in a regular basis. Hugely damaging to the brand.