5 ms·

The resources that I built my business on: - a chair - a table - electricity - any computer - internet - coffee (for food) - bathroom If you can bring y

by err4nt 10y ago

The resources that I built my business on: - a chair - a table - electricity - any computer - internet - coffee (for food) - bathroom If you can bring your own laptop to a starbucks, they have plenty of the rest of those. A laptop can cost as little as 230$ USD, so thats really the only barrier and I beleive its an attainable goal for anybody in North America. If your life depending on having a laptop, thats something anybody could find. My point is that business will leave. Those with the most means (Google, etc) would be out of the coutry by the end of the week! It would take longer for the small guys to pack up and move, but the point is that knowing how I would respond surely must be an attitude others have too. Just had to get that out there while we're talking about mincome yet again.

mordocai 10y ago
$230 extra above living expenses is not attainable without title loans or something similar for many in America. Not to mention that if the laptop breaks you have to know how to fix it yourself or pay $100+ to fix it (or buy another new one for $230). If you don't know enough about computers to transfer data off a "dead" machine then you have to pay $100+ for someone to do that even with the new one.
- err4nt 10y ago
  You must be joking, I know an awful lot of americans with laptops. Its not like mortgaging a house! And Im not talking about 'above living expenses'. When I bought mine I had no money for the electric bill. I leveraged the laptop purchase into paying that bill and many more after it!
  - mordocai 10y ago
    You weren't as poor as some people I know then. Many of the people I'm talking about already can't pay their utility bills. Some of them don't have electricity because it was shut off. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work for others.
    - err4nt 10y ago
      You don't know me or my situation so don't speak like you do. I bargained with collections to give me the time. I paid the electric bill with promises of “If you shut it off right now, I cannot earn the money to pay the bill, but if you keep the lights on I can work hard and pay in full (soon)”. For months I had negative money in my bank account and a court order against me (collections for a credit card I had been buying groceries on and no longer had). So that means whenever I did make any money, the instant I put the cheque into my account to cash it - it was gone. I still couldn't buy groceries even if you put a cheque for $5000 in my hand at some points. I got by and survived. Dropped 70 pounds from not eating right, but you're right, perhaps I wasn't poor as some folks you know, so therefore my experience hasn't been my experience.
      - mordocai 10y ago
        My point isn't to invalidate your experience, but to invalidate your idea that since you worked hard and made it through everyone else is able to do the exact same thing. Regardless of all the other points brought up, what if they just have a lower than average intellect? That'll stop them in their tracks too. Regardless of anything else, it requires at least an average intelligence to be able to learn things on your own/with marginal help. Pretending that -anyone- can do what you did is a disservice to yourself(because you are marginalizing all the hard work you put in, I read your other comment) as well as people who for whatever reason are just not capable of doing the same thing.
  - troncheadle 10y ago
    Ok, I'm replying to you down the chain a bit because this is a great example of you just not getting it at all. Do you have a college education? Did you go to a good high school? Do you have motivated peers? Growing up, did you have enough food to eat every day and every night? Do you have two loving parents? Or even one? Did you have a roof over your head every night? How many times did you change houses, schools, districts? These and more are the factors out of the individual's hands that can severely negatively impact their ability to grow up and become successful. You didn't 'just have a laptop and a desk.' You had a laptop, a desk, an education, a stable upbringing. MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THOSE THINGS AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAP. Again -- MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THOSE THINGS AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAP. This comment I am replying to is just the worst kind of ignorance -- no, dude, there are SO many people in this country that can't afford a laptop. And if they could -- do you know how fucking expensive it is to learn to code??? You need one of 3 things -- 1: lots and lots of free time 2: a $50k education 3: an exceptionally great free public education ( I say exceptionally great because <20% of american schools teach coding). I'm not going to be that commenter that just says 'ugh google privilege and you'll get it.' You had privilege in excess, and now you have ignorance in excess. You need empathy and humility. I'm honestly disgusted by your comments. The kids I work with every fucking day don't have half the shit you grew up with and it makes ALL of the difference in their lives.
    - err4nt 10y ago
      > Do you have a college education? Yes! I couldn't afford fancy schools so I did community college for 3 years and paid my own tuition. Total cost <$10k and I had government loans for it that I'm still paying off 7 years later… > Did you go to a good high school? I went to an okay high school. It was 1/3 hilbillies from the country, 1/3 rich city folks from a nearby town, and 1/3 lower middle class folks who lived in the country. I was part of the last group. > Do you have motivated peers? HELL NO! We called the place where I grew up the 'death trap' because if you don't get out of there before you're 20 years old, your life amounts to nothing. You have to escape the gravitational pull to become nothing and break free. > Growing up, did you have enough food to eat every day and every night? Yes, we lived a very frugal life and my parents made 2 things their priority: food, and clothes. We didn't have TV, we didn't have a pool, we didn't buy pop (soda), we didn't have cool desserts in our lunches, we didn't have trendy clothes, we went without a lot of stuff my friends on welfare were able to afford because my parents were working hard to provide for us without welfare. Sometimes I wonder if welfare would have afforded us a better lifestyle, but my parents work ethic would not allow them to stop trying. > Do you have two loving parents? Yes, and I think there's more value in that than most want to admit. I believe a lot of the 'economic' problems we see in society are strong evidence of what fatherlessness looks like in a generation or two of people. > Did you have a roof over your head every night? Yes > How many times did you change houses, schools, districts? I changed schools (at my request) due to harassment my Grade 3 teacher, new school was in a different town. > do you know how fucking expensive it is to learn to code??? Sure, it costs $0. I do it every day! That's been my saving grace :D I'm so excited that I was able to do this with such few tools that I am ready, willing, and in a place where I want to HELP others learn code :D I already volunteer my time, money, and labour to help people learn the skills I've picked up, and if I could find a way to turn that into my job I would be thrilled! > You had privilege in excess, and now you have ignorance in excess. You need empathy and humility. I'm honestly disgusted by your comments. The kids I work with every fucking day don't have half the shit you grew up with and it makes ALL of the difference in their lives. You know, this whole time you're attacking me but I'm also the guy going wayyyyyyy outside his own comfort zone to get in front of others and help them learn. I think you've got me pegged wrong. Soo I tell people: “This is what I did, I can show you the ropes and help you figure it out for yourself too!” and for $230, if I saw somebody was serious about learning I wouldn't think twice about affording the tool FOR them. I want to teach others how to build their own earning power and make a living (helping others) - so if it's TRUE that my success is only due to my privilege I may as well quit helping people now right? Why bother investing in others, teaching them, helping them if all that effort is wasted because only privilege bring success. Do you really believe that? I'm going to continue helping others because I sure don't!
- pop8row9 10y ago
  Grace is definitely a factor to consider. The question I have is: should someone be required to work in order to live reasonably well? One entrepreneur, JK Rowling, is worth USD 1 bil. She did not require many resources to attain this; a savvier setup could have allowed digital-only publishing. Value can literally be created from the mind. Given this, should it not be an acceptable profession in society to provide mind-workers the space and time they require to produce works unique to them? Should they not have comforts if required? Can not any individual create in such capacities, and is it not only our fear and reliance upon the tales of a dark history and historical slogans which keep us from thinking the problem through to completion and from the very consideration that such new ways of working are indeed possible at a civilization scale? Are we afraid of success?
CPLX 10y ago
- A position as a first class citizen in a tremendously wealthy industrial country that got that way by stealing resources and enslaving native populations for centuries, presumably
- err4nt 10y ago
  What exactly is a first class citizen? Care to explain?
  - troncheadle 10y ago
    'First class citizen', while not really used outside of programming, was likely meant in contrast to a 'second class citizen.' "A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or legal resident there." - Wikipedia He's saying you probably did not suffer much at all because of systemic discrimination, and pointing out the glaringly obvious -- that you don't realize that majority of the people in this country DO suffer because of systemic discrimination.
    - err4nt 10y ago
      How are you so sure that I'm not part of the majority that faces systemic discrimination? I can tell you right now if I had applied to university in the same town I went to college in I would be discriminated against - I don't match the race or gender of the average student in my town if that's what you mean…
      - CPLX 10y ago
        > How are you so sure that I'm not part of the majority that faces systemic discrimination? Lucky guess.
Applejinx 10y ago
Where are they gonna go, Greece? Apple is already in Ireland. You're assuming giant consumer countries are obligated to just passively let equally giant multinational corporations just do whatever they want. If Apple wants to live in Ireland, let 'em sell exclusively to Irish people. If they'd like to move to Greece, let 'em build an infrastructure there since the Greek government plainly can't. It's a symbiotic relationship and entities like Apple and Google know that far better than you do. They'd like to get absolutely as much as they can so long as they're not on crumbling sand foundations, and the less headstrong corporations don't even care about that; they'll just lobby for zero or negative taxes for themselves, even if it wrecks the markets they're in. Business will not leave. There's literally nowhere for them to go: they're already everywhere.
sigmar 10y ago
The fact that you replied to "without access to the same resources" with a list of physical needs seems to show that you really don't appreciate the disadvantages lower income people face. A laptop is fairly useless without the knowledge/education of what to use it for. Having time to go to a Starbucks is difficult for anyone with kids and without the money for daycare. Furthermore, the fact that you think everyone lives near a Starbucks is pretty illustrative of your privilege
- err4nt 10y ago
  > Furthermore, the fact that you think everyone lives near a Starbucks is pretty illustrative of your privilege I didn't say "everybody can do it because everybody has a starbucks" I just gave one example of type of place that provides many of those resources free of cost. Name 3 coffee shops in your town that don't have electricity? So here's a slightly more complete list for those who can't extrapolate: - libraries often have electricity, bathrooms, wifi, chairs, and tables - mall food courts often have electricity, chairs, and tables, many have wifi - cafés, restaurants, and pubs nearly always will have some kind of seating and tables (correct me if I'm wrong) - friend's houses come with electricity more often than not - many schools are open to the public that you could probably just walk in and sit in the cafeteria and get some work done I know some people live in amish country and don't have access to electricity, but I believe most North Americans are 'on the grid' so to speak.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - timt51 10y ago
    On somewhat of a tangent... The difficult circumstances of your life drove you to work hard, to hopefully succeed, to be a better person, to become who you are today. But did it/should it have to be that way? Did it have to be so hard? Maybe. Maybe not. I wish it didn't have to be that way - for anyone. But such difficulties in life are what make our accomplishments so spectacular...
  - sigmar 10y ago

by err4nt 10y ago

mordocai 10y ago

$230 extra above living expenses is not attainable without title loans or something similar for many in America. Not to mention that if the laptop breaks you have to know how to fix it yourself or pay $100+ to fix it (or buy another new one for $230). If you don't know enough about computers to transfer data off a "dead" machine then you have to pay $100+ for someone to do that even with the new one.

err4nt 10y ago
You must be joking, I know an awful lot of americans with laptops. Its not like mortgaging a house! And Im not talking about 'above living expenses'. When I bought mine I had no money for the electric bill. I leveraged the laptop purchase into paying that bill and many more after it!
- mordocai 10y ago
  You weren't as poor as some people I know then. Many of the people I'm talking about already can't pay their utility bills. Some of them don't have electricity because it was shut off. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work for others.
  - err4nt 10y ago
    You don't know me or my situation so don't speak like you do. I bargained with collections to give me the time. I paid the electric bill with promises of “If you shut it off right now, I cannot earn the money to pay the bill, but if you keep the lights on I can work hard and pay in full (soon)”. For months I had negative money in my bank account and a court order against me (collections for a credit card I had been buying groceries on and no longer had). So that means whenever I did make any money, the instant I put the cheque into my account to cash it - it was gone. I still couldn't buy groceries even if you put a cheque for $5000 in my hand at some points. I got by and survived. Dropped 70 pounds from not eating right, but you're right, perhaps I wasn't poor as some folks you know, so therefore my experience hasn't been my experience.
    - mordocai 10y ago
      My point isn't to invalidate your experience, but to invalidate your idea that since you worked hard and made it through everyone else is able to do the exact same thing. Regardless of all the other points brought up, what if they just have a lower than average intellect? That'll stop them in their tracks too. Regardless of anything else, it requires at least an average intelligence to be able to learn things on your own/with marginal help. Pretending that -anyone- can do what you did is a disservice to yourself(because you are marginalizing all the hard work you put in, I read your other comment) as well as people who for whatever reason are just not capable of doing the same thing.
- troncheadle 10y ago
  Ok, I'm replying to you down the chain a bit because this is a great example of you just not getting it at all. Do you have a college education? Did you go to a good high school? Do you have motivated peers? Growing up, did you have enough food to eat every day and every night? Do you have two loving parents? Or even one? Did you have a roof over your head every night? How many times did you change houses, schools, districts? These and more are the factors out of the individual's hands that can severely negatively impact their ability to grow up and become successful. You didn't 'just have a laptop and a desk.' You had a laptop, a desk, an education, a stable upbringing. MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THOSE THINGS AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAP. Again -- MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THOSE THINGS AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAP. This comment I am replying to is just the worst kind of ignorance -- no, dude, there are SO many people in this country that can't afford a laptop. And if they could -- do you know how fucking expensive it is to learn to code??? You need one of 3 things -- 1: lots and lots of free time 2: a $50k education 3: an exceptionally great free public education ( I say exceptionally great because <20% of american schools teach coding). I'm not going to be that commenter that just says 'ugh google privilege and you'll get it.' You had privilege in excess, and now you have ignorance in excess. You need empathy and humility. I'm honestly disgusted by your comments. The kids I work with every fucking day don't have half the shit you grew up with and it makes ALL of the difference in their lives.
  - err4nt 10y ago
    > Do you have a college education? Yes! I couldn't afford fancy schools so I did community college for 3 years and paid my own tuition. Total cost <$10k and I had government loans for it that I'm still paying off 7 years later… > Did you go to a good high school? I went to an okay high school. It was 1/3 hilbillies from the country, 1/3 rich city folks from a nearby town, and 1/3 lower middle class folks who lived in the country. I was part of the last group. > Do you have motivated peers? HELL NO! We called the place where I grew up the 'death trap' because if you don't get out of there before you're 20 years old, your life amounts to nothing. You have to escape the gravitational pull to become nothing and break free. > Growing up, did you have enough food to eat every day and every night? Yes, we lived a very frugal life and my parents made 2 things their priority: food, and clothes. We didn't have TV, we didn't have a pool, we didn't buy pop (soda), we didn't have cool desserts in our lunches, we didn't have trendy clothes, we went without a lot of stuff my friends on welfare were able to afford because my parents were working hard to provide for us without welfare. Sometimes I wonder if welfare would have afforded us a better lifestyle, but my parents work ethic would not allow them to stop trying. > Do you have two loving parents? Yes, and I think there's more value in that than most want to admit. I believe a lot of the 'economic' problems we see in society are strong evidence of what fatherlessness looks like in a generation or two of people. > Did you have a roof over your head every night? Yes > How many times did you change houses, schools, districts? I changed schools (at my request) due to harassment my Grade 3 teacher, new school was in a different town. > do you know how fucking expensive it is to learn to code??? Sure, it costs $0. I do it every day! That's been my saving grace :D I'm so excited that I was able to do this with such few tools that I am ready, willing, and in a place where I want to HELP others learn code :D I already volunteer my time, money, and labour to help people learn the skills I've picked up, and if I could find a way to turn that into my job I would be thrilled! > You had privilege in excess, and now you have ignorance in excess. You need empathy and humility. I'm honestly disgusted by your comments. The kids I work with every fucking day don't have half the shit you grew up with and it makes ALL of the difference in their lives. You know, this whole time you're attacking me but I'm also the guy going wayyyyyyy outside his own comfort zone to get in front of others and help them learn. I think you've got me pegged wrong. Soo I tell people: “This is what I did, I can show you the ropes and help you figure it out for yourself too!” and for $230, if I saw somebody was serious about learning I wouldn't think twice about affording the tool FOR them. I want to teach others how to build their own earning power and make a living (helping others) - so if it's TRUE that my success is only due to my privilege I may as well quit helping people now right? Why bother investing in others, teaching them, helping them if all that effort is wasted because only privilege bring success. Do you really believe that? I'm going to continue helping others because I sure don't!
pop8row9 10y ago
Grace is definitely a factor to consider. The question I have is: should someone be required to work in order to live reasonably well? One entrepreneur, JK Rowling, is worth USD 1 bil. She did not require many resources to attain this; a savvier setup could have allowed digital-only publishing. Value can literally be created from the mind. Given this, should it not be an acceptable profession in society to provide mind-workers the space and time they require to produce works unique to them? Should they not have comforts if required? Can not any individual create in such capacities, and is it not only our fear and reliance upon the tales of a dark history and historical slogans which keep us from thinking the problem through to completion and from the very consideration that such new ways of working are indeed possible at a civilization scale? Are we afraid of success?

CPLX 10y ago

- A position as a first class citizen in a tremendously wealthy industrial country that got that way by stealing resources and enslaving native populations for centuries, presumably

err4nt 10y ago
What exactly is a first class citizen? Care to explain?
- troncheadle 10y ago
  'First class citizen', while not really used outside of programming, was likely meant in contrast to a 'second class citizen.' "A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or legal resident there." - Wikipedia He's saying you probably did not suffer much at all because of systemic discrimination, and pointing out the glaringly obvious -- that you don't realize that majority of the people in this country DO suffer because of systemic discrimination.
  - err4nt 10y ago
    How are you so sure that I'm not part of the majority that faces systemic discrimination? I can tell you right now if I had applied to university in the same town I went to college in I would be discriminated against - I don't match the race or gender of the average student in my town if that's what you mean…
    - CPLX 10y ago
      > How are you so sure that I'm not part of the majority that faces systemic discrimination? Lucky guess.

Applejinx 10y ago

Where are they gonna go, Greece? Apple is already in Ireland. You're assuming giant consumer countries are obligated to just passively let equally giant multinational corporations just do whatever they want. If Apple wants to live in Ireland, let 'em sell exclusively to Irish people. If they'd like to move to Greece, let 'em build an infrastructure there since the Greek government plainly can't. It's a symbiotic relationship and entities like Apple and Google know that far better than you do. They'd like to get absolutely as much as they can so long as they're not on crumbling sand foundations, and the less headstrong corporations don't even care about that; they'll just lobby for zero or negative taxes for themselves, even if it wrecks the markets they're in. Business will not leave. There's literally nowhere for them to go: they're already everywhere.

sigmar 10y ago

The fact that you replied to "without access to the same resources" with a list of physical needs seems to show that you really don't appreciate the disadvantages lower income people face. A laptop is fairly useless without the knowledge/education of what to use it for. Having time to go to a Starbucks is difficult for anyone with kids and without the money for daycare. Furthermore, the fact that you think everyone lives near a Starbucks is pretty illustrative of your privilege

err4nt 10y ago
> Furthermore, the fact that you think everyone lives near a Starbucks is pretty illustrative of your privilege I didn't say "everybody can do it because everybody has a starbucks" I just gave one example of type of place that provides many of those resources free of cost. Name 3 coffee shops in your town that don't have electricity? So here's a slightly more complete list for those who can't extrapolate: - libraries often have electricity, bathrooms, wifi, chairs, and tables - mall food courts often have electricity, chairs, and tables, many have wifi - cafés, restaurants, and pubs nearly always will have some kind of seating and tables (correct me if I'm wrong) - friend's houses come with electricity more often than not - many schools are open to the public that you could probably just walk in and sit in the cafeteria and get some work done I know some people live in amish country and don't have access to electricity, but I believe most North Americans are 'on the grid' so to speak.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- timt51 10y ago
  On somewhat of a tangent... The difficult circumstances of your life drove you to work hard, to hopefully succeed, to be a better person, to become who you are today. But did it/should it have to be that way? Did it have to be so hard? Maybe. Maybe not. I wish it didn't have to be that way - for anyone. But such difficulties in life are what make our accomplishments so spectacular...
- sigmar 10y ago