6 ms·

It's extremely counterproductive to, as the article puts it, "take the question of the moral quality of the poor off the table." The fact is that a large amoun

It's extremely counterproductive to, as the article puts it, "take the question of the moral quality of the poor off the table." The fact is that a large amount of poverty is directly correlated with "moral quality". Most poor people in the US (maybe Canada is different?) have low "moral quality", which I define as engaging in behaviors that are likely to keep a person poor. These behaviors include not seeking work [1], substance abuse [2], single motherhood [3] and crime [4] (including crimes with no economic motive such as intimate partner violence). There are direct causal relationships between all of these behaviors and poverty. Not seeking work will result in not having a job, drug abuse will make you lose your job, and having no job makes you poor. Etc. Why would we want to take the primary cause of poverty off the table if our goal is to solve it? It's almost as if this guy's primary goal is to create a vote bank of government dependents rather than reduce poverty. [1] http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo/p60-252.pdf http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication... [2] http://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/2013MHDetTabs/NSDUH-MHDetTabs2013.pdf http://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/2013MHDetTabs... https://www.nber.org/chapters/c11165.pdf https://www.nber.org/chapters/c11165.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/adultsmoking/ http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/adultsmoking/ [3] https://www.amazon.com/Promises-Can-Keep-Motherhood-Marriage/dp/0520248198/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323532894&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Promises-Can-Keep-Motherhood-Marriage... http://www.economics21.org/html/great-gatsby-curve-revisited-part-1-755.html#.U8KmDXV53UY http://www.economics21.org/html/great-gatsby-curve-revisited... [4] http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf

clavalle 10y ago
So it is your sincere belief that most poor people are 'broken' in the sense that they can't even make rational decisions where 'rational' means 'likely to improve one's life'?
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I don't know. In the past I argued that the poor are completely rational and simply choose to exploit the safety net. It's a hypothesis I can't rule out. https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_work.html https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_wo... But that doesn't explain many of their other bad behaviors, e.g. wife beating.
  - clavalle 10y ago
    Domestic abuse is not limited to the poor. But, back to the point, assuming they are not as rational as the rest of us, somehow sub human, is a harmful position to take -- it precludes any positive action to change the incentive structure of the poor -- in your view, no matter what is done, they are still broken creatures beyond help. That you admittedly take that position with other more useful hypothesis still worthy of exploration is deeply disturbing. All the more so since I doubt you are alone and that your position is common.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      The poor commit 4x as much domestic abuse as high income people. And I single out domestic abuse because unlike robbery or selling drugs, "stealing a loaf of bread to feed his hungry children" is a nonsensical excuse for beating one's wife (or spending one's money on drugs and tobacco) But, back to the point, assuming they are not as rational as the rest of us, somehow sub human, is a harmful position to take -- it precludes any positive action to change the incentive structure of the poor -- in your view, no matter what is done, they are still broken creatures beyond help. It doesn't mean this at all. It just means that we need to create the right incentives, and these incentives need to take into account real life behavior rather than wishful thinking. For example, giving poor people the option to not work will be exploited. But if we need to prevent them from starving, why not put them to work? Bring back FDR's Civilian Conservation Corp. Then we can also fix our crumbling infrastructure for cheap. That fixes your incentives - you can either do hard labor for low money, or you can start looking for a better job.
      - clavalle 10y ago
        The poor may commit 4x the /reported/ domestic violence. Wealthier people have more to lose. I don't doubt that there is somewhat more domestic violence among the poor but I'd be willing to bet that if you take a wealthy couples and put them under extreme financial stress that the numbers would quickly even out. And vice versa. Assuming people are largely rational is wishful thinking? I am not against something like the CCC but forcing people to work or starve starts to look like slavery. Since it leads, as you say, to very cheap labor it incentivizes keeping the poor right in the situation they are in. The poor are not the only ones that can exploit a broken incentive structure.
collyw 10y ago
From what I have seen, the very rich are lacking in morals a lot. Avoiding taxes, exploiting workers, hiking prices of essential drugs to generate profits. Not all of them but many.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I've backed up my claims with careful citations. Can you do the same? Or is this just scapegoating an unsympathetic minority in order to distract attention from the bad behaviors of a politically powerful and exploitative group? Kind of like how Trump blames illegal Mexicans for the plight of the white non-working class?
radarsat1 10y ago
Do you not see that poverty can also be the cause of those behaviours, rather than the reverse?
- alanwatts 10y ago
  >There are direct causal relationships between all of these behaviors and poverty. Not seeking work will result in not having a job, drug abuse will make you lose your job, and having no job makes you poor. Etc. Not being able to afford education, or clean clothes, or a permanent residence rules you out of 99% of the job market, which is why so many give up on the job search. As stated by OP (and many parts of society), this is morally wrong, akin to being sub-human, untermensch. Actually believing this sentiment contributes further to this negative feedback cycle and leads to depression which leads to drug abuse.
  - gremlinsinc 10y ago
    Not to mention -- college grads are ALSO finding employment rough, unemployment for college grads is > 7% -- surely if the economy looks bleak for people with a college degree, maybe its' a bit more bleaker for those without? http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/ http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/
bvinc 10y ago
I think this is a super simplistic view. You're basically saying: Bad decisions leads to being poor. Not a single person is under the impression that all poor people made good decisions. Of course there is a causal relationship! But it's much more complicated than that. Some people are poor because they were born physically disabled, or mentally disabled. Some people got sick and lost their job and savings. Some people are poor because they're taking care of loved ones. Not all women choose to be single mothers. And many people living in poverty have jobs. The causal arrow also goes in both directions. Does a poor man on the street, with no shower, no transportation, no cell phone, and barely enough money in his pocket to eat, really have the ability to seek work? Does a poor man on the street have any reason to worry about the problems of substance abuse? Does a poor man on the street worry about going to jail for a while? I'm not even sure what you're suggesting though. It sounds like you're suggesting that we should continue shaming poor people as an effective means to prevent poverty. You don't think absolute desperation and lack of safety, security, health, and food, is enough of a motivation? You think shaming works? I don't get it. None of these ideas even matter though. With basic income, what matters is the end result for a society. Maybe life isn't just better for the poor people, but maybe it's better for you too. Maybe more poor people end up being functional members of society. Maybe you end up safer, healthier and happier in a society with basic income. Maybe people still want to work. Maybe there are more entrepreneurs. Maybe a basic income system is necessary for our society to function in the future. There are a lot of indications that this is the case. This is why we need to do basic income studies.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Does a poor man on the street, with no shower, no transportation, no cell phone, and barely enough money in his pocket to eat, really have the ability to seek work? Yes. Hundreds of thousands of people manage to do this even with the additional hindrances of no tengo permiso de trabajo and no hablo Ingles. But I'm sure that those illegal Mexicans are suffering from privilege, unlike the white man born into a country where welfare benefits usually exceed the mean GDP/Capita of Mexico. The book Scratch Beginnings is well worth a read: https://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dream/dp/0061714275 https://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dr... I'm not even sure what you're suggesting though. It sounds like you're suggesting that we should continue shaming poor people as an effective means to prevent poverty. You don't think absolute desperation and lack of safety, security, health, and food, is enough of a motivation? Apparently not. You think shaming works? No, I think ignoring the cause of the problem is not a road to a solution. Maybe a basic income system is necessary for our society to function in the future. There are a lot of indications that this is the case. I have yet to see even a back of the envelope calculation suggesting these benefits will occur.
gremlinsinc 10y ago
Except everyone living in poverty also has degraded brain functions - which also keeps them in poverty. There's a real physical correlation to mental health and poverty. Removing poverty from the equation will mean less single moms, because less dads committing crimes to get money. It'll mean more advanced brain function because they don't experience the stress growing up in poverty brings.... Here's a good article on this: http://europe.newsweek.com/how-poverty-affects-brains-493239?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=yahoo_news&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo http://europe.newsweek.com/how-poverty-affects-brains-493239...

clavalle 10y ago

So it is your sincere belief that most poor people are 'broken' in the sense that they can't even make rational decisions where 'rational' means 'likely to improve one's life'?

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I don't know. In the past I argued that the poor are completely rational and simply choose to exploit the safety net. It's a hypothesis I can't rule out. https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_work.html https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_wo... But that doesn't explain many of their other bad behaviors, e.g. wife beating.
- clavalle 10y ago
  Domestic abuse is not limited to the poor. But, back to the point, assuming they are not as rational as the rest of us, somehow sub human, is a harmful position to take -- it precludes any positive action to change the incentive structure of the poor -- in your view, no matter what is done, they are still broken creatures beyond help. That you admittedly take that position with other more useful hypothesis still worthy of exploration is deeply disturbing. All the more so since I doubt you are alone and that your position is common.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    The poor commit 4x as much domestic abuse as high income people. And I single out domestic abuse because unlike robbery or selling drugs, "stealing a loaf of bread to feed his hungry children" is a nonsensical excuse for beating one's wife (or spending one's money on drugs and tobacco) But, back to the point, assuming they are not as rational as the rest of us, somehow sub human, is a harmful position to take -- it precludes any positive action to change the incentive structure of the poor -- in your view, no matter what is done, they are still broken creatures beyond help. It doesn't mean this at all. It just means that we need to create the right incentives, and these incentives need to take into account real life behavior rather than wishful thinking. For example, giving poor people the option to not work will be exploited. But if we need to prevent them from starving, why not put them to work? Bring back FDR's Civilian Conservation Corp. Then we can also fix our crumbling infrastructure for cheap. That fixes your incentives - you can either do hard labor for low money, or you can start looking for a better job.
    - clavalle 10y ago
      The poor may commit 4x the /reported/ domestic violence. Wealthier people have more to lose. I don't doubt that there is somewhat more domestic violence among the poor but I'd be willing to bet that if you take a wealthy couples and put them under extreme financial stress that the numbers would quickly even out. And vice versa. Assuming people are largely rational is wishful thinking? I am not against something like the CCC but forcing people to work or starve starts to look like slavery. Since it leads, as you say, to very cheap labor it incentivizes keeping the poor right in the situation they are in. The poor are not the only ones that can exploit a broken incentive structure.

collyw 10y ago

From what I have seen, the very rich are lacking in morals a lot. Avoiding taxes, exploiting workers, hiking prices of essential drugs to generate profits. Not all of them but many.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I've backed up my claims with careful citations. Can you do the same? Or is this just scapegoating an unsympathetic minority in order to distract attention from the bad behaviors of a politically powerful and exploitative group? Kind of like how Trump blames illegal Mexicans for the plight of the white non-working class?

radarsat1 10y ago

Do you not see that poverty can also be the cause of those behaviours, rather than the reverse?

alanwatts 10y ago
>There are direct causal relationships between all of these behaviors and poverty. Not seeking work will result in not having a job, drug abuse will make you lose your job, and having no job makes you poor. Etc. Not being able to afford education, or clean clothes, or a permanent residence rules you out of 99% of the job market, which is why so many give up on the job search. As stated by OP (and many parts of society), this is morally wrong, akin to being sub-human, untermensch. Actually believing this sentiment contributes further to this negative feedback cycle and leads to depression which leads to drug abuse.
- gremlinsinc 10y ago
  Not to mention -- college grads are ALSO finding employment rough, unemployment for college grads is > 7% -- surely if the economy looks bleak for people with a college degree, maybe its' a bit more bleaker for those without? http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/ http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/

bvinc 10y ago

I think this is a super simplistic view. You're basically saying: Bad decisions leads to being poor. Not a single person is under the impression that all poor people made good decisions. Of course there is a causal relationship! But it's much more complicated than that. Some people are poor because they were born physically disabled, or mentally disabled. Some people got sick and lost their job and savings. Some people are poor because they're taking care of loved ones. Not all women choose to be single mothers. And many people living in poverty have jobs. The causal arrow also goes in both directions. Does a poor man on the street, with no shower, no transportation, no cell phone, and barely enough money in his pocket to eat, really have the ability to seek work? Does a poor man on the street have any reason to worry about the problems of substance abuse? Does a poor man on the street worry about going to jail for a while? I'm not even sure what you're suggesting though. It sounds like you're suggesting that we should continue shaming poor people as an effective means to prevent poverty. You don't think absolute desperation and lack of safety, security, health, and food, is enough of a motivation? You think shaming works? I don't get it. None of these ideas even matter though. With basic income, what matters is the end result for a society. Maybe life isn't just better for the poor people, but maybe it's better for you too. Maybe more poor people end up being functional members of society. Maybe you end up safer, healthier and happier in a society with basic income. Maybe people still want to work. Maybe there are more entrepreneurs. Maybe a basic income system is necessary for our society to function in the future. There are a lot of indications that this is the case. This is why we need to do basic income studies.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Does a poor man on the street, with no shower, no transportation, no cell phone, and barely enough money in his pocket to eat, really have the ability to seek work? Yes. Hundreds of thousands of people manage to do this even with the additional hindrances of no tengo permiso de trabajo and no hablo Ingles. But I'm sure that those illegal Mexicans are suffering from privilege, unlike the white man born into a country where welfare benefits usually exceed the mean GDP/Capita of Mexico. The book Scratch Beginnings is well worth a read: https://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dream/dp/0061714275 https://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dr... I'm not even sure what you're suggesting though. It sounds like you're suggesting that we should continue shaming poor people as an effective means to prevent poverty. You don't think absolute desperation and lack of safety, security, health, and food, is enough of a motivation? Apparently not. You think shaming works? No, I think ignoring the cause of the problem is not a road to a solution. Maybe a basic income system is necessary for our society to function in the future. There are a lot of indications that this is the case. I have yet to see even a back of the envelope calculation suggesting these benefits will occur.

gremlinsinc 10y ago

Except everyone living in poverty also has degraded brain functions - which also keeps them in poverty. There's a real physical correlation to mental health and poverty. Removing poverty from the equation will mean less single moms, because less dads committing crimes to get money. It'll mean more advanced brain function because they don't experience the stress growing up in poverty brings.... Here's a good article on this: http://europe.newsweek.com/how-poverty-affects-brains-493239?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=yahoo_news&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo http://europe.newsweek.com/how-poverty-affects-brains-493239...