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People like you are part of the reason it takes science so long to move forward in areas that contain mysteries. You say there's nothing to argue against, yet

People like you are part of the reason it takes science so long to move forward in areas that contain mysteries. You say there's nothing to argue against, yet you are making an argument anyway, proving that there is, in fact, something to argue about. You are arguing against a very strange and specific version of what is called "the hard problem". At the heart of the hard problem is a simple question: how can we causally explain conscious experience? It's very convenient to say "oh it's just complexity. Done." But that doesn't solve anything and it's not particularly helpful. It leaves many questions unanswered. Why does consciousness seem to be unitary? Why does only a small portion of the information reach conscious awareness? Whence the feeling of free will? You should feel free to ignore these and many more questions, but to dismiss the inquiry entirely is, bluntly, stupid. I've never argued for souls or anything immaterial, I simply think we haven't fully understood or explained the nature of consciousness.

Houshalter 10y ago
Ok my terminology may have been wrong, fine. But this thread started off about quantum mysticism and whether or not physics or science could ever explain consciousness. I strongly object to that. And the people that promote views like that are the kinds of people that talk about "the hard problem of consciousness". Materialists generally don't talk about it or find it that interesting. You're right that I don't have a complete explanation of consciousness, and of course no one does. But if we stop talking about the really crazy theories like epiphenomenalism, the answer must be that it's some kind of algorithm. A lot of people reject that idea completely with really bizarre arguments, hence my hostility.
- placebo 10y ago
  I understand where your hostility comes from, but dismissing consciousness on the terms that there are so many people who use that term to make stupid claims and crazy theories is just taking the easy way out. Has any materialist seriously considered what exactly is this material they so take for granted? When you really scrutinise it, you see that it can't be found. All you can find are models - mental representations of what it is. Does that mean that nothing exists? Of course not - you know that's not the case. This knowing is the hard problem, and you are right that it will never be solved by science, but not because it doesn't exist, but because the ability to do any science at all requires an "observer" and an "observed", and consciousness precedes both these concepts. It is the knowing in which all models can be experienced - how could something that includes all ever be explained by anything within it? I find it quite ironic that materialists are so opposed to dualism, while at the same time being so entrenched in it. Not in the sense of "mind vs. matter" or "soul vs. body" (they managed to outgrow that naive philosophy), but in a sense of "knowing" that everything is matter while overlooking the fact that a distinct and separate knower has to exist in order to see this matter. That's as dualist as it gets...

Houshalter 10y ago

Ok my terminology may have been wrong, fine. But this thread started off about quantum mysticism and whether or not physics or science could ever explain consciousness. I strongly object to that. And the people that promote views like that are the kinds of people that talk about "the hard problem of consciousness". Materialists generally don't talk about it or find it that interesting. You're right that I don't have a complete explanation of consciousness, and of course no one does. But if we stop talking about the really crazy theories like epiphenomenalism, the answer must be that it's some kind of algorithm. A lot of people reject that idea completely with really bizarre arguments, hence my hostility.

placebo 10y ago
I understand where your hostility comes from, but dismissing consciousness on the terms that there are so many people who use that term to make stupid claims and crazy theories is just taking the easy way out. Has any materialist seriously considered what exactly is this material they so take for granted? When you really scrutinise it, you see that it can't be found. All you can find are models - mental representations of what it is. Does that mean that nothing exists? Of course not - you know that's not the case. This knowing is the hard problem, and you are right that it will never be solved by science, but not because it doesn't exist, but because the ability to do any science at all requires an "observer" and an "observed", and consciousness precedes both these concepts. It is the knowing in which all models can be experienced - how could something that includes all ever be explained by anything within it? I find it quite ironic that materialists are so opposed to dualism, while at the same time being so entrenched in it. Not in the sense of "mind vs. matter" or "soul vs. body" (they managed to outgrow that naive philosophy), but in a sense of "knowing" that everything is matter while overlooking the fact that a distinct and separate knower has to exist in order to see this matter. That's as dualist as it gets...