4 ms·

How are you measuring what the "democratic world" says, exactly? What it's media says? Isn't Donald Trump making waves right now for having improbably high sup

How are you measuring what the "democratic world" says, exactly? What it's media says? Isn't Donald Trump making waves right now for having improbably high support despite thinking Putin is not so bad after all? Dumb though Trump may be he is without a doubt a key part of the "democratic world" right now.

berntb 10y ago
1. Can you condemn Putin for starting wars and annexing area in Europe, just like Hitler in the 1930s? If you refuse I will assume that you work for the Russian junta. (To _only_ condemn USA instead is not an answer.) 2. My sources are e.g. what is said by common EU institutions and by state chiefs in the EU. Like here http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 BBC is just part of the anti Russian global conspiracy..? (And you contradict that "the whole democratic world" is saying the same thing -- with what one of the newer populists (that isn't even elected yet) said about something else... Is that REALLY the only argument you have...?!) Edit: reformatted to make it clearer.
- dleslie 10y ago
  Military actions of aggression should be condemned, regardless of whether we call it a war. Russia annexing Crimea was one such action. The entire American operation in Iraq is another. Russia and the USA are more alike then their populations are comfortable admitting. Oligarchies cynically masquerading as democracies.
  - berntb 10y ago
    My main point here is: The whole Western democratic world is more or less saying the same thing about Putin. You have answered two comments of mine without touching that. (Also -- check the democratic peace theory. USA don't start wars against democracies. Putin just don't want to have prosperous democracies as neighbours.) And so on.
    - dleslie 10y ago
      The Americans absolutely overthrow Democratic governments[0]; they justify it by quibbling that perhaps the governments weren't the right kind of democracy. I do not take issue with the notion that Russia engages in propaganda, because they obviously do. I believe I've said as much in this thread. Whether or not I agree with your statement of the existence of a plurality of agreement among the "Western Democratic World" (why not all Democratic nations?), it is no matter. I would expect cooperation among the Five Eyes, for instance. 0: http://www.alternet.org/story/39416/america%27s_100_years_of_overthrow/ http://www.alternet.org/story/39416/america%27s_100_years_of...
      - berntb 10y ago
        Ah, it was a mistake to mention anything else with you, even in parenthesis... You are not going to touch that the international community, not only US and Sweden, agree that Putin's Russia is much worse. (As you are certainly well aware of: The democratic peace theory discuss wars, not involvements in coups during the second "great game", that of the Cold War.) 4 comments (in 2 places) without touching my point... :-( You are not serious, bye.
        dleslie 10y ago
        I did touch it; I stated that it doesn't matter what the international community things. "Foo did something wrong." "Bar did the wrong thing as well." "So what, Quz, Qid and Qaz agree that Foo did something wrong." It doesn't matter what Quz, Qid and Qaz think. Plurality does not justify propaganda.
        berntb 10y ago
        I have not talked about the "international community", I talked about that the democratic countries agree, regarding Putin's propaganda. Elegant rewrite, by the way. And so on.
        dleslie 10y ago
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  Which area are you talking about? The war in Georgia? Cuz if you are talking about Crimea then no. "Annexation" doesn't tend to have support of the people and the referendum and repeated opinion polls by western research groups afterwards show very clearly that the Crimeans wanted to join Russia (and believe the referendum was fair). If your entire logic boils down to "you either agree with X or you work for the Russians" where X is a highly subjective and debatable thing, then you're always going to see shadowy operatives everywhere. That's just a ridiculous way to debate things. 2. The BBC is not a part of any "anti-Russian conspiracy" (there is no conspiracy). That story is just reporting the views of EU officials. Guess what - I don't trust EU officials. Quite a few of them also believe the entire British population was brainwashed by tabloid propaganda and that's why they rejected the EU in their own vote: the idea that maybe people can genuinely understand the EU and dislike it is unprocessable to them.
  - berntb 10y ago
    So you can't criticize Putin's wars... I don't know of any reputable political party or media which support invasion wars and annexations in Europe today. (No, Putin's own media are not reputable. :-) ) Elections with more than 95% for any side are obviously fake. It smells of Soviet and North Korea. I've only seen people obviously working in St Petersburg argue that could possibly be true. And you... And my argument is that on one side there is Putin's paid propaganda -- and on the other side there is more or less the collected western democracies of the world. Those countries usually don't agree on much, but this united us. You think that position of all the democracies is "highly subjective and debatable" -- after believing that any election result over 95% is real!! That stretched my ability to give the benefit of a doubt far beyond breaking. (I missed your post, it came a day after.)

berntb 10y ago

1. Can you condemn Putin for starting wars and annexing area in Europe, just like Hitler in the 1930s? If you refuse I will assume that you work for the Russian junta. (To _only_ condemn USA instead is not an answer.) 2. My sources are e.g. what is said by common EU institutions and by state chiefs in the EU. Like here http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 BBC is just part of the anti Russian global conspiracy..? (And you contradict that "the whole democratic world" is saying the same thing -- with what one of the newer populists (that isn't even elected yet) said about something else... Is that REALLY the only argument you have...?!) Edit: reformatted to make it clearer.

dleslie 10y ago
Military actions of aggression should be condemned, regardless of whether we call it a war. Russia annexing Crimea was one such action. The entire American operation in Iraq is another. Russia and the USA are more alike then their populations are comfortable admitting. Oligarchies cynically masquerading as democracies.
- berntb 10y ago
  My main point here is: The whole Western democratic world is more or less saying the same thing about Putin. You have answered two comments of mine without touching that. (Also -- check the democratic peace theory. USA don't start wars against democracies. Putin just don't want to have prosperous democracies as neighbours.) And so on.
  - dleslie 10y ago
    The Americans absolutely overthrow Democratic governments[0]; they justify it by quibbling that perhaps the governments weren't the right kind of democracy. I do not take issue with the notion that Russia engages in propaganda, because they obviously do. I believe I've said as much in this thread. Whether or not I agree with your statement of the existence of a plurality of agreement among the "Western Democratic World" (why not all Democratic nations?), it is no matter. I would expect cooperation among the Five Eyes, for instance. 0: http://www.alternet.org/story/39416/america%27s_100_years_of_overthrow/ http://www.alternet.org/story/39416/america%27s_100_years_of...
    - berntb 10y ago
      Ah, it was a mistake to mention anything else with you, even in parenthesis... You are not going to touch that the international community, not only US and Sweden, agree that Putin's Russia is much worse. (As you are certainly well aware of: The democratic peace theory discuss wars, not involvements in coups during the second "great game", that of the Cold War.) 4 comments (in 2 places) without touching my point... :-( You are not serious, bye.
      - dleslie 10y ago
        I did touch it; I stated that it doesn't matter what the international community things. "Foo did something wrong." "Bar did the wrong thing as well." "So what, Quz, Qid and Qaz agree that Foo did something wrong." It doesn't matter what Quz, Qid and Qaz think. Plurality does not justify propaganda.
        berntb 10y ago
        I have not talked about the "international community", I talked about that the democratic countries agree, regarding Putin's propaganda. Elegant rewrite, by the way. And so on.
        dleslie 10y ago
zigzigzag 10y ago
Which area are you talking about? The war in Georgia? Cuz if you are talking about Crimea then no. "Annexation" doesn't tend to have support of the people and the referendum and repeated opinion polls by western research groups afterwards show very clearly that the Crimeans wanted to join Russia (and believe the referendum was fair). If your entire logic boils down to "you either agree with X or you work for the Russians" where X is a highly subjective and debatable thing, then you're always going to see shadowy operatives everywhere. That's just a ridiculous way to debate things. 2. The BBC is not a part of any "anti-Russian conspiracy" (there is no conspiracy). That story is just reporting the views of EU officials. Guess what - I don't trust EU officials. Quite a few of them also believe the entire British population was brainwashed by tabloid propaganda and that's why they rejected the EU in their own vote: the idea that maybe people can genuinely understand the EU and dislike it is unprocessable to them.
- berntb 10y ago
  So you can't criticize Putin's wars... I don't know of any reputable political party or media which support invasion wars and annexations in Europe today. (No, Putin's own media are not reputable. :-) ) Elections with more than 95% for any side are obviously fake. It smells of Soviet and North Korea. I've only seen people obviously working in St Petersburg argue that could possibly be true. And you... And my argument is that on one side there is Putin's paid propaganda -- and on the other side there is more or less the collected western democracies of the world. Those countries usually don't agree on much, but this united us. You think that position of all the democracies is "highly subjective and debatable" -- after believing that any election result over 95% is real!! That stretched my ability to give the benefit of a doubt far beyond breaking. (I missed your post, it came a day after.)