6 ms·

Pay people in regular ways through regular channels. Seriously, though, ADP delivers paystubs. If they were using ADP, they would have gotten paystubs.

jomamaxx 10y ago
When a company has just started, they may have not set this up. You can invoice the company. It's not a big deal. Again - of all flags - lack of pay stubs is the least of them if it's just a garage startup with 3-ish people. The actual exchange of money is 100x a stronger indicator of health than the presence of a stub.
- dalke 10y ago
  This account had a dev team of 8 when she interviewed in May and 17 when she arrived in July, with an office in Santa Clara. That is not "a garage startup with 3-ish people."
- elithrar 10y ago
  > You can invoice the company. It's not a big deal. Nonononono. You're hired as an employee. There is a legal and ethical agreement for them to pay you at the intervals agreed upon in your contract. There are no ifs or buts about it, no invoicing them, no excuses for 'just started'. Payroll is NOT hard.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "Nonononono. You're hired as an employee. There is a legal and ethical agreement for them to pay you at the intervals agreed upon in your contract. There are no ifs or buts about it, no invoicing them, no excuses for 'just started'. Payroll is NOT hard." No - you are completely wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong - or even remotely immoral - about paying using invoicing while a company gets going. It's common and normal. And payroll is not easy - it's a huge mess - and it can be very complicated. If a founder, with funding, told me: "Invoice us for the first two months until October when we are up with payroll" I would have no problem with that so long as I was getting paid. Again - of all things, it's not the issue. The non-payment, the lies about funding, the loans from staff, and all the rest were bad signals. What's odd is how nobody seemed to have anything to say about the product itself ...
    - infinite8s 10y ago
      Apparently there is no product...
    - dalke 10y ago
      Could you enlighten me as to the mechanics? If my contract says I'll be paid monthly on the 15th, when do I send in the invoice? Are the payment terms net-10, net-30, or longer? Do I need to break out sick or vacation days as its own line item? What about the deductions? Who is responsible for figuring out and paying the payroll tax? Because it sounds like asking for an invoice is a way for the company to avoid paying unemployment tax, social security, etc. That in itself would be a red flag. If the invoice is not paid, can I file it as a wage claim or do I use some other mechanism? These are the obvious questions. If as you say it a common and normal practice, there must be some place which describes the basic details. If payroll is hard for a company, why is it any easier for the employee to figure out these payroll details?
      - jomamaxx 10y ago
        "Could you enlighten me as to the mechanics? If my contract says I'll be paid monthly on the 15th, when do I send in the invoice? Are the payment terms net-10, net-30, or longer? Do I need to break out sick or vacation days as its own line item? What about the deductions?" If you are having difficulty grasping this - you should not work for an early stage startup that is pre-funding. You are expecting very standard 'employeeship'. If you are an 'employee' of the company - yes - you are required to be paid with W2's etc. - of course. But if you're not obligated to be an employee of a company to accept equity - or other kinds of payment for services rendered. As far as 'invoicing' - either you're being sarcastic or you've never done such a thing. You send an invoice, and you get paid. You have to claim it yourself in terms of taxation. As far as 'terms' - I'm hoping you are kidding. Either you get paid or you don't. The company in this article I think was well past the time wherein they should have had had payroll set up - no doubt about it. At the same time - it's absurd how confused many of you seem to be about the simple mechanics of getting paid. You do not need a payroll system (i.e. W2s) while you are in the most early stages of a company.
- sageabilly 10y ago
  "The actual exchange of money is 100x a stronger indicator of health than the presence of a stub." Real companies with people running them who want to do things on the up and up and who know how to run a successful company want to keep a paper trail of every dollar going in or out the door. This includes having a pay sub with every single paycheck or invoice paid that shows what was paid, how much was paid, why it was paid, and when it was paid. That's How to Business 101.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "Real companies with people running them who want to do things on the up and up and who know how to run a successful company want to keep a paper trail of every dollar going in or out the door." Most of you it seems have never run a business, have never consulted, have never invoiced for anything. --> You don't need a W2 to pay someone legally --> You don't need a 'pay stub' to have perfectly organized and legal books.
- nameless912 10y ago
  OTOH, you can generate paystubs through literally any halfway-decent bookkeeping software. I get running a lean shop, but once you expand from one employee to two, one of your first investments should be in some sort of accounting system in order to make sure every last goddamn penny is tracked with as long and complete a paper trail as possible. Any good entrepreneur knows that if you don't know where every cent of your VC money is going, you're going to get eaten alive at your next investor meeting or VC round. On the other hand, if you can pull out a spreadsheet that says "We spent exactly xx% of our previous round on payroll, xx% on rent and utilities, xx% on chinese food, etc." you're going to have a much easier time convincing investors that you're a business that knows what the hell they're doing. Not having decent bookkeeping can't be chalked up to "fast-moving startup woes", it's just irresponsible, and there's no excuse for not being on top of it.
  - fluxquanta 10y ago
    Wasn't one of the excuses the CEO had for missing pay dates that his money was tied up in IRS dealings? Maybe a copy of QuickBooks would've helped with that.
    - nameless912 10y ago
      Very probably. It's much easier to deal with an audit if you have a button to print exactly the report the IRS is asking for.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Then set it up when you start hiring people. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing this. None.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Again - of all flags - lack of pay stubs is the least of them Its not the least, though it may be less than just being late on payroll. Posted paydays, of a certain minimum frequency, and timely payment on those paydays is a bare minimum legal requirement in most jurisdictions for which there are generally fairly significant liabilities that attach for failure. [0] A business that fails this in any broad way (for lots of employees and/or for multiple pay periods) is seriously and fundamentally broken. (OTOH, tax withholding and lots of the other things that go on paystubs are similar bare minimum legal requirements with significant liabilities for failures, and if you are doing them correctly in the first place, actually providing paystubs is trivial -- the hard part is doing the required things that end up getting reflected on paystubs. So missing paystubs is at least nearly as big of a red flag as late payroll.) [0] In California, for instance, failure to either post paydays meeting the legal requirements or to pay on those posted paydays as required by law is a crime (misdemeanor) by the employer. http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_paydays.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_paydays.htm
- einhverfr 10y ago
  The CEO blamed ADP for the payroll being late. When you combine that with the lack of paystubs, if alarm whistles aren't going off, you are just not paying attention.
- manigandham 10y ago
  It is a big deal, running a business requires following the law. There is no special "startup" case where you're allowed to be loose on your obligations. Accurate payroll costs somewhere between $50-100 per month per employee with dozens of great vendors available. This is an incredibly trivial cost (especially compared to the fines for breaking these laws) and means there's no excuse to not have things in order. If you can afford a salary, you can afford accurate payroll and bookkeeping - otherwise you have no business being in business.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "It is a big deal, running a business requires following the law." Again - I would suggest that maybe you have never started a company or done payroll, or paid anyone yourself. It is not required to have 'payroll' to pay individuals for services rendered, nor have properly managed books. I once created a 'side company' to manage some IP. The company had no employees. All participants (there were five of us over time, but only three at any given time) - were paid as consultants. Two of us had equity. This arrangement was far superior than having payroll for this particular situation.
    - phxrsg 10y ago
      You're right, in that case. In the case of contractors invoicing is normal and legally acceptable. In the use case you mention here, contractors are appropriate and legal. It is, however, illegal to pay employees like contractors. When you are hired to work full time for a start up you almost always meet the test of being an employee. The author of this article did. It IS therefore illegal to not give her a paystub or ask her to invoice. This is generalizable to start ups. I've worked for start ups. Every time I was hired as an employee and treated as one. It would have been a red flag and illegal for them not to pay me as an employee. Again, everything you're saying for the most part is true if you're talking about paying IC's. Where you are demonstrably wrong is assuming that you can treat start up employees as ICs You can't. Therefore doing what you're claiming is "normal" is actually illegal on many levels.
    - manigandham 10y ago
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > When a company has just started, they may have not set this up. The correct (and only non-criminal) order of operations is (1) figure this out, (2) start hiring employees. If you can't calculate withholdings and all those other things that get listed on a paystub correctly (which is the only thing that would stop you from generating a paystub), you are breaking the law (civilly and perhaps criminally under federal and state tax and other laws, that require the withholdings, deductions, etc.) If you don't (in California, where this occurred) have posted paydays with at least the legally specified frequency, or don't pay employees on those paydays, you are breaking the law (criminally, under state employment laws, as well as possibly civilly.) So, if you haven't figured this out, you have no business hiring employees.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "When a company has just started, they may have not set this up. The correct (and only non-criminal) order of operations is (1) figure this out, (2) start hiring employees." This is false. For any of you interested - here is the actual law in California: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm It's perfectly normal and very common to submit invoices for services rendered that you claim on your 1099. There's no way you could have run a business without grasping how common paying people via invoicing is. Some major companies - such as Wordpress - tend not to hire people for a while. For the first little while, they have you work on 'projects', remotely, until they decide they want to bring you on long term. The founder indicated that they pay them for the work and only bring some of them on. Obviously, they are getting paid via invoicing. Startups will often bring someone on for a project/consulting, and then decided to keep them full time. This is not uncommon. It's also happened to me. I'm going to guess that most of you commenting have actually never run a business, paid an invoice, or submitted and invoice.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      Independent contractors and employees are two different things. It's quite legal to hire people to serve in roles that are not, under the tax code, employees but independent contractors, without being able to handle payroll. But that's not a status that a company can freely choose independent of the nature of the work, it's a status that is controlled by the nature of the work by rules set out in the tax code. You seem to think that employees hired as employees can elect invoicing and 1099 status if the company isn't up to handling employment law requirements, order that the company can hire people as employees and then treat them as contractors until it is ready to handle employment law requirements. Neither is the case, and either is a situation in which the company violates many aspects of the law (and more if it doesn't pay timely on a regular schedule but instead waits for invoices.)
- syshum 10y ago
  If you are "invoicing" the company you are not employee but an independent contractor Contractors never get Paystubs and yes there it is a HUGE red flag (and likely illegal) for a EMPLOYEE to invoice a company for their wages.

jomamaxx 10y ago

When a company has just started, they may have not set this up. You can invoice the company. It's not a big deal. Again - of all flags - lack of pay stubs is the least of them if it's just a garage startup with 3-ish people. The actual exchange of money is 100x a stronger indicator of health than the presence of a stub.

dalke 10y ago
This account had a dev team of 8 when she interviewed in May and 17 when she arrived in July, with an office in Santa Clara. That is not "a garage startup with 3-ish people."
elithrar 10y ago
> You can invoice the company. It's not a big deal. Nonononono. You're hired as an employee. There is a legal and ethical agreement for them to pay you at the intervals agreed upon in your contract. There are no ifs or buts about it, no invoicing them, no excuses for 'just started'. Payroll is NOT hard.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "Nonononono. You're hired as an employee. There is a legal and ethical agreement for them to pay you at the intervals agreed upon in your contract. There are no ifs or buts about it, no invoicing them, no excuses for 'just started'. Payroll is NOT hard." No - you are completely wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong - or even remotely immoral - about paying using invoicing while a company gets going. It's common and normal. And payroll is not easy - it's a huge mess - and it can be very complicated. If a founder, with funding, told me: "Invoice us for the first two months until October when we are up with payroll" I would have no problem with that so long as I was getting paid. Again - of all things, it's not the issue. The non-payment, the lies about funding, the loans from staff, and all the rest were bad signals. What's odd is how nobody seemed to have anything to say about the product itself ...
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    Apparently there is no product...
  - dalke 10y ago
    Could you enlighten me as to the mechanics? If my contract says I'll be paid monthly on the 15th, when do I send in the invoice? Are the payment terms net-10, net-30, or longer? Do I need to break out sick or vacation days as its own line item? What about the deductions? Who is responsible for figuring out and paying the payroll tax? Because it sounds like asking for an invoice is a way for the company to avoid paying unemployment tax, social security, etc. That in itself would be a red flag. If the invoice is not paid, can I file it as a wage claim or do I use some other mechanism? These are the obvious questions. If as you say it a common and normal practice, there must be some place which describes the basic details. If payroll is hard for a company, why is it any easier for the employee to figure out these payroll details?
    - jomamaxx 10y ago
      "Could you enlighten me as to the mechanics? If my contract says I'll be paid monthly on the 15th, when do I send in the invoice? Are the payment terms net-10, net-30, or longer? Do I need to break out sick or vacation days as its own line item? What about the deductions?" If you are having difficulty grasping this - you should not work for an early stage startup that is pre-funding. You are expecting very standard 'employeeship'. If you are an 'employee' of the company - yes - you are required to be paid with W2's etc. - of course. But if you're not obligated to be an employee of a company to accept equity - or other kinds of payment for services rendered. As far as 'invoicing' - either you're being sarcastic or you've never done such a thing. You send an invoice, and you get paid. You have to claim it yourself in terms of taxation. As far as 'terms' - I'm hoping you are kidding. Either you get paid or you don't. The company in this article I think was well past the time wherein they should have had had payroll set up - no doubt about it. At the same time - it's absurd how confused many of you seem to be about the simple mechanics of getting paid. You do not need a payroll system (i.e. W2s) while you are in the most early stages of a company.
sageabilly 10y ago
"The actual exchange of money is 100x a stronger indicator of health than the presence of a stub." Real companies with people running them who want to do things on the up and up and who know how to run a successful company want to keep a paper trail of every dollar going in or out the door. This includes having a pay sub with every single paycheck or invoice paid that shows what was paid, how much was paid, why it was paid, and when it was paid. That's How to Business 101.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "Real companies with people running them who want to do things on the up and up and who know how to run a successful company want to keep a paper trail of every dollar going in or out the door." Most of you it seems have never run a business, have never consulted, have never invoiced for anything. --> You don't need a W2 to pay someone legally --> You don't need a 'pay stub' to have perfectly organized and legal books.
nameless912 10y ago
OTOH, you can generate paystubs through literally any halfway-decent bookkeeping software. I get running a lean shop, but once you expand from one employee to two, one of your first investments should be in some sort of accounting system in order to make sure every last goddamn penny is tracked with as long and complete a paper trail as possible. Any good entrepreneur knows that if you don't know where every cent of your VC money is going, you're going to get eaten alive at your next investor meeting or VC round. On the other hand, if you can pull out a spreadsheet that says "We spent exactly xx% of our previous round on payroll, xx% on rent and utilities, xx% on chinese food, etc." you're going to have a much easier time convincing investors that you're a business that knows what the hell they're doing. Not having decent bookkeeping can't be chalked up to "fast-moving startup woes", it's just irresponsible, and there's no excuse for not being on top of it.
- fluxquanta 10y ago
  Wasn't one of the excuses the CEO had for missing pay dates that his money was tied up in IRS dealings? Maybe a copy of QuickBooks would've helped with that.
  - nameless912 10y ago
    Very probably. It's much easier to deal with an audit if you have a button to print exactly the report the IRS is asking for.
st3v3r 10y ago
Then set it up when you start hiring people. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing this. None.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Again - of all flags - lack of pay stubs is the least of them Its not the least, though it may be less than just being late on payroll. Posted paydays, of a certain minimum frequency, and timely payment on those paydays is a bare minimum legal requirement in most jurisdictions for which there are generally fairly significant liabilities that attach for failure. [0] A business that fails this in any broad way (for lots of employees and/or for multiple pay periods) is seriously and fundamentally broken. (OTOH, tax withholding and lots of the other things that go on paystubs are similar bare minimum legal requirements with significant liabilities for failures, and if you are doing them correctly in the first place, actually providing paystubs is trivial -- the hard part is doing the required things that end up getting reflected on paystubs. So missing paystubs is at least nearly as big of a red flag as late payroll.) [0] In California, for instance, failure to either post paydays meeting the legal requirements or to pay on those posted paydays as required by law is a crime (misdemeanor) by the employer. http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_paydays.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_paydays.htm
einhverfr 10y ago
The CEO blamed ADP for the payroll being late. When you combine that with the lack of paystubs, if alarm whistles aren't going off, you are just not paying attention.
manigandham 10y ago
It is a big deal, running a business requires following the law. There is no special "startup" case where you're allowed to be loose on your obligations. Accurate payroll costs somewhere between $50-100 per month per employee with dozens of great vendors available. This is an incredibly trivial cost (especially compared to the fines for breaking these laws) and means there's no excuse to not have things in order. If you can afford a salary, you can afford accurate payroll and bookkeeping - otherwise you have no business being in business.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "It is a big deal, running a business requires following the law." Again - I would suggest that maybe you have never started a company or done payroll, or paid anyone yourself. It is not required to have 'payroll' to pay individuals for services rendered, nor have properly managed books. I once created a 'side company' to manage some IP. The company had no employees. All participants (there were five of us over time, but only three at any given time) - were paid as consultants. Two of us had equity. This arrangement was far superior than having payroll for this particular situation.
  - phxrsg 10y ago
    You're right, in that case. In the case of contractors invoicing is normal and legally acceptable. In the use case you mention here, contractors are appropriate and legal. It is, however, illegal to pay employees like contractors. When you are hired to work full time for a start up you almost always meet the test of being an employee. The author of this article did. It IS therefore illegal to not give her a paystub or ask her to invoice. This is generalizable to start ups. I've worked for start ups. Every time I was hired as an employee and treated as one. It would have been a red flag and illegal for them not to pay me as an employee. Again, everything you're saying for the most part is true if you're talking about paying IC's. Where you are demonstrably wrong is assuming that you can treat start up employees as ICs You can't. Therefore doing what you're claiming is "normal" is actually illegal on many levels.
  - manigandham 10y ago
dragonwriter 10y ago
> When a company has just started, they may have not set this up. The correct (and only non-criminal) order of operations is (1) figure this out, (2) start hiring employees. If you can't calculate withholdings and all those other things that get listed on a paystub correctly (which is the only thing that would stop you from generating a paystub), you are breaking the law (civilly and perhaps criminally under federal and state tax and other laws, that require the withholdings, deductions, etc.) If you don't (in California, where this occurred) have posted paydays with at least the legally specified frequency, or don't pay employees on those paydays, you are breaking the law (criminally, under state employment laws, as well as possibly civilly.) So, if you haven't figured this out, you have no business hiring employees.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "When a company has just started, they may have not set this up. The correct (and only non-criminal) order of operations is (1) figure this out, (2) start hiring employees." This is false. For any of you interested - here is the actual law in California: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm It's perfectly normal and very common to submit invoices for services rendered that you claim on your 1099. There's no way you could have run a business without grasping how common paying people via invoicing is. Some major companies - such as Wordpress - tend not to hire people for a while. For the first little while, they have you work on 'projects', remotely, until they decide they want to bring you on long term. The founder indicated that they pay them for the work and only bring some of them on. Obviously, they are getting paid via invoicing. Startups will often bring someone on for a project/consulting, and then decided to keep them full time. This is not uncommon. It's also happened to me. I'm going to guess that most of you commenting have actually never run a business, paid an invoice, or submitted and invoice.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Independent contractors and employees are two different things. It's quite legal to hire people to serve in roles that are not, under the tax code, employees but independent contractors, without being able to handle payroll. But that's not a status that a company can freely choose independent of the nature of the work, it's a status that is controlled by the nature of the work by rules set out in the tax code. You seem to think that employees hired as employees can elect invoicing and 1099 status if the company isn't up to handling employment law requirements, order that the company can hire people as employees and then treat them as contractors until it is ready to handle employment law requirements. Neither is the case, and either is a situation in which the company violates many aspects of the law (and more if it doesn't pay timely on a regular schedule but instead waits for invoices.)
syshum 10y ago
If you are "invoicing" the company you are not employee but an independent contractor Contractors never get Paystubs and yes there it is a HUGE red flag (and likely illegal) for a EMPLOYEE to invoice a company for their wages.