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I don't need to make an argument, because there is nothing to argue against. I don't accept that "the hard problem" is a real problem, or even a coherent though

I don't need to make an argument, because there is nothing to argue against. I don't accept that "the hard problem" is a real problem, or even a coherent thought. It seems quite obvious to me that "consciousness" is caused by complex algorithms being run by the human brain. But even if science shows that is false, there will always be another scientific explanation. Even if souls exist, they would have to interact with physical matter to work, and so, in principle, could be studied scientifically. Observed and experimented with. And in principle, we could deduce the logical rules that explains their behavior, and build artificial souls, or simulate souls on a computer. I think "souls" are an insanely unscientific belief, on the verge of flat Earthism, but at least it's possible in principle. The hard problem asserts the possibility of something much, much weirder than the existence of souls or physical laws we don't understand yet. It asserts the existence of a universe which is causally disconnected from our own. Meaning the things that happen in that universe, can never influence anything that happens in our universe in any way. And that our "consciousness" exists in that universe, and not in our own. More on the absurdity of that proposition here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/nqv/zombies_redacted/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/nqv/zombies_redacted/

faktorialas 10y ago
>It seems quite obvious to me that "consciousness" is caused by complex algorithms being run by the human brain. Why "consciousness" in quotes? You don't have it? Are you a bot? And where is the obviousness from? Just this is how problems usually go down, so you assume this one will go the same way? >But even if science shows that is false, there will always be another scientific explanation. I mean, science is pretty cool, and having some faith in it is fine, but why this much? Why say always when it doesn't have one now? > Even if souls exist, they would have to interact with physical matter to work, and so, in principle, could be studied scientifically. Observed and experimented with. And in principle, we could deduce the logical rules that explains their behavior, and build artificial souls, or simulate souls on a computer. Yes, if they do interact with the outside world, they can be studied by science as much as they do interact. But how do you study them where they don't, where they just provide qualia and the outside world doesn't look any different? Isn't science about reproducible empirical evidence, which qualia don't provide? >hard problem is weird Well, you using consciousness in quotes as a, hopefully, conscious person is also weird. I don't see how you avoid the disconnectedness when you see that no science can even know whether you're conscious or not.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  >Why "consciousness" in quotes? Because I'm not convinced "consciousness" is a meaningful concept that actually exists. No one has the slightest idea how to define it or what it really means, so it's a very vague non-precise term at best. But I accepted it for the purpose of this discussion. >where is the obviousness from? Just this is how problems usually go down, so you assume this one will go the same way? Because there is abundant evidence that the brain is the mind. Brain damage causes mental impairment, and we can observe it through fMRIs and interact with it through various experiments. We can reproduce some behavior from computer algorithms somewhat similar to biological neural networks, and I don't see why we won't eventually be able to reproduce all of it. Modelling the brain computationally is a huge field of research that has made a huge amount of progress in recent years. Not to mention neuroscience in general, which has produced a huge amount of knowledge. But beyond that, it would be really strange if the physical laws that govern are universe are magically invalid in this one specific place. We know from evolutionary theory that humans aren't special. We are just the product of random mutation and natural selection, from the first accidental self replicators. There is nothing special at all about humans, we are just regular animals made of physical matter, that have been selected for intelligence. Of course it's possible this is all wrong. It's also possible that the Earth is really flat, and evil gods are manipulating all our observations and distorting photos taken from space, etc. But anyone who believes that is crazy. >Yes, if they do interact with the outside world, they can be studied by science as much as they do interact. But how do you study them where they don't, where they just provide qualia and the outside world doesn't look any different? "Qualia" is also a vague imprecise term. If this "consciousness" stuff actually interacted with the physical world, then we would, in principle, be able to observe it. But if it doesn't, then it's irrelevant to us. Totally disconnected from anything you can ever observe or experience. If you say "I am conscious", then some chain of events caused that event. Perhaps a thought formed in the neurons of your brain. In principle we could study your brain and see why it believes it is conscious, and what things are causing that behavior. If it's caused by "souls", then, at least in principle, we could study the behavior of the souls, and observe them interacting with physical matter to make you say words or think thoughts. Seriously read the link I posted, it goes into that in great detail.
  - 10y ago
TaupeRanger 10y ago
People like you are part of the reason it takes science so long to move forward in areas that contain mysteries. You say there's nothing to argue against, yet you are making an argument anyway, proving that there is, in fact, something to argue about. You are arguing against a very strange and specific version of what is called "the hard problem". At the heart of the hard problem is a simple question: how can we causally explain conscious experience? It's very convenient to say "oh it's just complexity. Done." But that doesn't solve anything and it's not particularly helpful. It leaves many questions unanswered. Why does consciousness seem to be unitary? Why does only a small portion of the information reach conscious awareness? Whence the feeling of free will? You should feel free to ignore these and many more questions, but to dismiss the inquiry entirely is, bluntly, stupid. I've never argued for souls or anything immaterial, I simply think we haven't fully understood or explained the nature of consciousness.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  Ok my terminology may have been wrong, fine. But this thread started off about quantum mysticism and whether or not physics or science could ever explain consciousness. I strongly object to that. And the people that promote views like that are the kinds of people that talk about "the hard problem of consciousness". Materialists generally don't talk about it or find it that interesting. You're right that I don't have a complete explanation of consciousness, and of course no one does. But if we stop talking about the really crazy theories like epiphenomenalism, the answer must be that it's some kind of algorithm. A lot of people reject that idea completely with really bizarre arguments, hence my hostility.
  - placebo 10y ago
    I understand where your hostility comes from, but dismissing consciousness on the terms that there are so many people who use that term to make stupid claims and crazy theories is just taking the easy way out. Has any materialist seriously considered what exactly is this material they so take for granted? When you really scrutinise it, you see that it can't be found. All you can find are models - mental representations of what it is. Does that mean that nothing exists? Of course not - you know that's not the case. This knowing is the hard problem, and you are right that it will never be solved by science, but not because it doesn't exist, but because the ability to do any science at all requires an "observer" and an "observed", and consciousness precedes both these concepts. It is the knowing in which all models can be experienced - how could something that includes all ever be explained by anything within it? I find it quite ironic that materialists are so opposed to dualism, while at the same time being so entrenched in it. Not in the sense of "mind vs. matter" or "soul vs. body" (they managed to outgrow that naive philosophy), but in a sense of "knowing" that everything is matter while overlooking the fact that a distinct and separate knower has to exist in order to see this matter. That's as dualist as it gets...

faktorialas 10y ago

>It seems quite obvious to me that "consciousness" is caused by complex algorithms being run by the human brain. Why "consciousness" in quotes? You don't have it? Are you a bot? And where is the obviousness from? Just this is how problems usually go down, so you assume this one will go the same way? >But even if science shows that is false, there will always be another scientific explanation. I mean, science is pretty cool, and having some faith in it is fine, but why this much? Why say always when it doesn't have one now? > Even if souls exist, they would have to interact with physical matter to work, and so, in principle, could be studied scientifically. Observed and experimented with. And in principle, we could deduce the logical rules that explains their behavior, and build artificial souls, or simulate souls on a computer. Yes, if they do interact with the outside world, they can be studied by science as much as they do interact. But how do you study them where they don't, where they just provide qualia and the outside world doesn't look any different? Isn't science about reproducible empirical evidence, which qualia don't provide? >hard problem is weird Well, you using consciousness in quotes as a, hopefully, conscious person is also weird. I don't see how you avoid the disconnectedness when you see that no science can even know whether you're conscious or not.

Houshalter 10y ago
>Why "consciousness" in quotes? Because I'm not convinced "consciousness" is a meaningful concept that actually exists. No one has the slightest idea how to define it or what it really means, so it's a very vague non-precise term at best. But I accepted it for the purpose of this discussion. >where is the obviousness from? Just this is how problems usually go down, so you assume this one will go the same way? Because there is abundant evidence that the brain is the mind. Brain damage causes mental impairment, and we can observe it through fMRIs and interact with it through various experiments. We can reproduce some behavior from computer algorithms somewhat similar to biological neural networks, and I don't see why we won't eventually be able to reproduce all of it. Modelling the brain computationally is a huge field of research that has made a huge amount of progress in recent years. Not to mention neuroscience in general, which has produced a huge amount of knowledge. But beyond that, it would be really strange if the physical laws that govern are universe are magically invalid in this one specific place. We know from evolutionary theory that humans aren't special. We are just the product of random mutation and natural selection, from the first accidental self replicators. There is nothing special at all about humans, we are just regular animals made of physical matter, that have been selected for intelligence. Of course it's possible this is all wrong. It's also possible that the Earth is really flat, and evil gods are manipulating all our observations and distorting photos taken from space, etc. But anyone who believes that is crazy. >Yes, if they do interact with the outside world, they can be studied by science as much as they do interact. But how do you study them where they don't, where they just provide qualia and the outside world doesn't look any different? "Qualia" is also a vague imprecise term. If this "consciousness" stuff actually interacted with the physical world, then we would, in principle, be able to observe it. But if it doesn't, then it's irrelevant to us. Totally disconnected from anything you can ever observe or experience. If you say "I am conscious", then some chain of events caused that event. Perhaps a thought formed in the neurons of your brain. In principle we could study your brain and see why it believes it is conscious, and what things are causing that behavior. If it's caused by "souls", then, at least in principle, we could study the behavior of the souls, and observe them interacting with physical matter to make you say words or think thoughts. Seriously read the link I posted, it goes into that in great detail.
- 10y ago

TaupeRanger 10y ago

People like you are part of the reason it takes science so long to move forward in areas that contain mysteries. You say there's nothing to argue against, yet you are making an argument anyway, proving that there is, in fact, something to argue about. You are arguing against a very strange and specific version of what is called "the hard problem". At the heart of the hard problem is a simple question: how can we causally explain conscious experience? It's very convenient to say "oh it's just complexity. Done." But that doesn't solve anything and it's not particularly helpful. It leaves many questions unanswered. Why does consciousness seem to be unitary? Why does only a small portion of the information reach conscious awareness? Whence the feeling of free will? You should feel free to ignore these and many more questions, but to dismiss the inquiry entirely is, bluntly, stupid. I've never argued for souls or anything immaterial, I simply think we haven't fully understood or explained the nature of consciousness.

Houshalter 10y ago
Ok my terminology may have been wrong, fine. But this thread started off about quantum mysticism and whether or not physics or science could ever explain consciousness. I strongly object to that. And the people that promote views like that are the kinds of people that talk about "the hard problem of consciousness". Materialists generally don't talk about it or find it that interesting. You're right that I don't have a complete explanation of consciousness, and of course no one does. But if we stop talking about the really crazy theories like epiphenomenalism, the answer must be that it's some kind of algorithm. A lot of people reject that idea completely with really bizarre arguments, hence my hostility.
- placebo 10y ago
  I understand where your hostility comes from, but dismissing consciousness on the terms that there are so many people who use that term to make stupid claims and crazy theories is just taking the easy way out. Has any materialist seriously considered what exactly is this material they so take for granted? When you really scrutinise it, you see that it can't be found. All you can find are models - mental representations of what it is. Does that mean that nothing exists? Of course not - you know that's not the case. This knowing is the hard problem, and you are right that it will never be solved by science, but not because it doesn't exist, but because the ability to do any science at all requires an "observer" and an "observed", and consciousness precedes both these concepts. It is the knowing in which all models can be experienced - how could something that includes all ever be explained by anything within it? I find it quite ironic that materialists are so opposed to dualism, while at the same time being so entrenched in it. Not in the sense of "mind vs. matter" or "soul vs. body" (they managed to outgrow that naive philosophy), but in a sense of "knowing" that everything is matter while overlooking the fact that a distinct and separate knower has to exist in order to see this matter. That's as dualist as it gets...