6 ms·

Outside of the edit window for my comment, but wanted to add: the H1B situation sounds fishy as hell. 8 H1Bs costs a lot of money, which the company does not se

by GuiA 10y ago

Outside of the edit window for my comment, but wanted to add: the H1B situation sounds fishy as hell. 8 H1Bs costs a lot of money, which the company does not seem to abound with. It seems like something weird might be going on here - if the founders are willing to forge receipts and lie about the company, it might not be beyond them to hold on to passports or some such for "immigration reasons", which would then explained the unwavering loyalty. If something like that is going on, I hope the devs get out of it unburned.

wrong_variable 10y ago
(speaking from a very informed position on this) The biggest indicator I have seen when it comes to H1B1 is if the company is run by recent foreign immigrants. I have seen 5 man team able to get hold of H1B1 - since they were that dedicated. The process is not actually that hard if there is a will from the top for it.
pjc50 10y ago
The easiest solution is that they've simply lied to the 'H1Bs' and immigration officials as well - brought them in on tourist visas or some other arrangement.
- wpietri 10y ago
  Excellent point. Which would make the developers even less likely to go anywhere or talk to authorities.
- rcruzeiro 10y ago
  A tourist could only stay for 6 months AFAIK. If that's indeed the case, then those guys are insane.
  - maverick_iceman 10y ago
    Once you're in the country, even if you overstay your visa nobody is going to come to deport you. The problem arises once you leave the US and want to come back again - visa overstays will be a huge black mark then.
NhanH 10y ago
I want to add that with the H1b lottery being around 20-30% for the past couple of years, being able to hire 8 H1Bs mean that they applied for ~30-40 people. I definitely would lean toward the other comments here that the situation is extremely phony
- the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
  You can bet that those were transfers from some outsourcing company.
ones_and_zeros 10y ago
H1Bs aren't that much money, especially if it is a transfer [0]. You will of course need legal help but since H1B has become so popular that process has been streamlined and attorneys now use it as a loss leader in order to expand their business. The other aspect, is that yes it'll be about $4k to transfer an H1B all in, but... consider the savings. A Level 1 "Computer Programmer" in Santa Clara has a minimum wage of $52k[1]. I'm not too familiar with Santa Clara but that is probably a 50% savings over a typical software engineer wage. Paying $30k for 8 H1B transfers all in looks really attractive when payroll is shrunk by $300k+... EDIT: looking at some of their linkedin profiles they fit the profile of an F1 OPT employee (Bachelors from an unknown university in china, masters from a large state university STEM degree mill, recently graduated), which is even better for the employer, you get a built in tax benefit discount on their wage. [0] https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-form-i-129-petition-nonimmigrant-worker https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-form-i-129-p... [1] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-1131&area=41940&year=17&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-11...
gcb0 10y ago
here how it happens: a company, that is not really a company, keeps applying for tons of h1b. they usually have some title like consulting. they get the h1b and don't even bring the programmers from India. they become "visa holders" companies. the h1b's then start to look for work on their own, or the holder. and once the programmer is hired, the visa holder company gets paid, take 70% (or 60% if the programmer found the position themselves). and this is how most h1b contractors that work on Google and such live. they will endure it for the 10 years the us forces them to stay as h1b. always trying to get transferred to the hiring company directly, and almost always failing. the final company pays much more for a contractor via a visa holder, but they have the benefit of paying it via a small consulting company, so it won't show up as head count for the investors. everyone but the programmer wins.
- 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
  Never have I seen this laid out before like this, and so I thank you for that! I think it's a real tragedy that we can't just have a rational Visa system- you get an offer from a company, then you should be able to get a work visa. Work visas continue for as long as you are employed plus one year. That gives you a year to get a new job. This is how you attract the best and the brightest and this is what america needs.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    I really dig your .plan!
  - 4h53n 10y ago
    In EU it's called a Blue Card.
- tootie 10y ago
  There are plenty of organizations that use H1-Bs properly and correctly, but when people talk about H1-B fraud it's exactly as you describe. They've poisoned the well. It also explains why there are people that can honestly claim we need more H1-Bs because legitimate use is being choked out.
zem 10y ago
as an H-1B myself, you don't need to hold on to passports to buy that sort of "loyalty". moving here from anywhere in asia is a huge sunk cost, and the natural impulse is to hope against hope that you don't have to bite the bullet and go back home, essentially eating that cost and starting over. plus (at least from an indian perspective) there was a time when the indian job market for programmers was so bad that people would put up with all sorts of abusive conditions, simply because they knew that if they went back home it would be to a long and depressing job search that would likely end up with a low-paying position. (i believe that has gotten better in recent years; i'm not sure what the situation in china is)

by GuiA 10y ago

wrong_variable 10y ago

(speaking from a very informed position on this) The biggest indicator I have seen when it comes to H1B1 is if the company is run by recent foreign immigrants. I have seen 5 man team able to get hold of H1B1 - since they were that dedicated. The process is not actually that hard if there is a will from the top for it.

pjc50 10y ago

The easiest solution is that they've simply lied to the 'H1Bs' and immigration officials as well - brought them in on tourist visas or some other arrangement.

wpietri 10y ago
Excellent point. Which would make the developers even less likely to go anywhere or talk to authorities.
rcruzeiro 10y ago
A tourist could only stay for 6 months AFAIK. If that's indeed the case, then those guys are insane.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  Once you're in the country, even if you overstay your visa nobody is going to come to deport you. The problem arises once you leave the US and want to come back again - visa overstays will be a huge black mark then.

NhanH 10y ago

I want to add that with the H1b lottery being around 20-30% for the past couple of years, being able to hire 8 H1Bs mean that they applied for ~30-40 people. I definitely would lean toward the other comments here that the situation is extremely phony

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
You can bet that those were transfers from some outsourcing company.

ones_and_zeros 10y ago

H1Bs aren't that much money, especially if it is a transfer [0]. You will of course need legal help but since H1B has become so popular that process has been streamlined and attorneys now use it as a loss leader in order to expand their business. The other aspect, is that yes it'll be about $4k to transfer an H1B all in, but... consider the savings. A Level 1 "Computer Programmer" in Santa Clara has a minimum wage of $52k[1]. I'm not too familiar with Santa Clara but that is probably a 50% savings over a typical software engineer wage. Paying $30k for 8 H1B transfers all in looks really attractive when payroll is shrunk by $300k+... EDIT: looking at some of their linkedin profiles they fit the profile of an F1 OPT employee (Bachelors from an unknown university in china, masters from a large state university STEM degree mill, recently graduated), which is even better for the employer, you get a built in tax benefit discount on their wage. [0] https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-form-i-129-petition-nonimmigrant-worker https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-form-i-129-p... [1] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-1131&area=41940&year=17&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-11...

gcb0 10y ago

here how it happens: a company, that is not really a company, keeps applying for tons of h1b. they usually have some title like consulting. they get the h1b and don't even bring the programmers from India. they become "visa holders" companies. the h1b's then start to look for work on their own, or the holder. and once the programmer is hired, the visa holder company gets paid, take 70% (or 60% if the programmer found the position themselves). and this is how most h1b contractors that work on Google and such live. they will endure it for the 10 years the us forces them to stay as h1b. always trying to get transferred to the hiring company directly, and almost always failing. the final company pays much more for a contractor via a visa holder, but they have the benefit of paying it via a small consulting company, so it won't show up as head count for the investors. everyone but the programmer wins.

20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
Never have I seen this laid out before like this, and so I thank you for that! I think it's a real tragedy that we can't just have a rational Visa system- you get an offer from a company, then you should be able to get a work visa. Work visas continue for as long as you are employed plus one year. That gives you a year to get a new job. This is how you attract the best and the brightest and this is what america needs.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  I really dig your .plan!
- 4h53n 10y ago
  In EU it's called a Blue Card.
tootie 10y ago
There are plenty of organizations that use H1-Bs properly and correctly, but when people talk about H1-B fraud it's exactly as you describe. They've poisoned the well. It also explains why there are people that can honestly claim we need more H1-Bs because legitimate use is being choked out.

zem 10y ago

as an H-1B myself, you don't need to hold on to passports to buy that sort of "loyalty". moving here from anywhere in asia is a huge sunk cost, and the natural impulse is to hope against hope that you don't have to bite the bullet and go back home, essentially eating that cost and starting over. plus (at least from an indian perspective) there was a time when the indian job market for programmers was so bad that people would put up with all sorts of abusive conditions, simply because they knew that if they went back home it would be to a long and depressing job search that would likely end up with a low-paying position. (i believe that has gotten better in recent years; i'm not sure what the situation in china is)