7 ms·

My experience with old works is that, while they may at first appear to suffer from the "it's not novel (anymore)" feeling, over time I find that the real issue

My experience with old works is that, while they may at first appear to suffer from the "it's not novel (anymore)" feeling, over time I find that the real issue is that they are far more different from contemporary literature than any contemporary literature. They're too novel. We can go all the way back and talk about Homer as the best example. The way that _The Iliad_ tells a story, conveys the experience of war, illustrates a character, even the way the language works as you read is completely different from a modern novel. It takes work to adapt to it. I would say that, in general, that's the joy I find in all older literature, whether it's Joyce, or Dickens, or Philip K. Dick, or Jack Vance: in finding out how it wants to talk to you, and letting yourself fall into some strange mode of communication. In my mind, every author brings something uniquely their own to the table, and the older you get, the more strange and unfamiliar that thing is. Anyway — YMMV, of course, and you may be more right than I am. But your take on this made me think a bit, and I thought I'd talk about it.

bmer 10y ago
That's actually...a really good point. It might be that my "it's not novel" feeling is actually "it's too novel (to be comfortable)". Realizing this, it kind of makes me want to rebel against the whole "it feels too old" and actually go re-read some of the stuff that didn't catch my attention before.
- aaron695 10y ago
  Nah, you were right. But you can get enjoyment from reading hard/old things. Driving to a great view might not be as enjoyable as hiking to an ok view. But Philip K. Dick is crap. Not cool to say it. And like you say might have been great for his time, but try and read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" it's plain awful. But you can't tell me you wouldn't love to see a musket battle, some of the classics are still around because they were good. OT: I find Ursula K. Le Guin work just ok. Very overrated. But it's not hard to read something like Earthsea and you can then say you've done it.
  - _mhr_ 10y ago
    PKD has some bad stories, but I think he has a lot of good ones. Electric Sheep isn't one of his good ones, I agree with that. I quite liked most of the stories in Beyond Lies the Wub. An example of a bad story of his from that collection, off the top of my head, is The Indefatigable Frog. That was pretty silly. I encourage you to give Beyond Lies the Wub a shot before writing him off entirely.
  - di4na 10y ago
    I personally tend to think that PKD really rushed all his works. And it shows. As a ton of SF, his themes and the ideas behind are still really interesting, but it lacks a ton of polishing work.
daxfohl 10y ago
Aside: I've read the first 100-200 pages of Ulysses seemingly once every year for the last fifteen years trying to "get it" and always end up giving up. (Same for Proust and Pynchon). If you can provide any guidance about what Joyce communicates to you, please do. (Gabriel Garcia Marquez was also in that group for a number of years/readings, but I finally got over the hump and love that style now. To the point that he may be my favorite author. I think Günter Grass was my stepping stone there.)
- sxcurry 10y ago
  I highly recommend the Re:Joyce podcast by noted Irish author Frank Delaney. He deconstructs Ulysses in a very entertaining manner, 20 minutes at a time. Available at http://blog.frankdelaney.com/re-joyce/ http://blog.frankdelaney.com/re-joyce/ Also, I recommend listening to the Audible version of Ulysses, which I found much easier than reading it in printed form - the language really comes alive.
- soufron 10y ago
  These books are not easy to read. They ask some work on the part of the reader. It's not entertainment. They bring much more than their story to the table, but they're way harder to read than non-fiction. What you need is time. Lots of time. I've read the complete in search of lost time novels when I was around 15. I found it easy to read because I had nothing else to do. And I am plenty sure it changed a lot of things for me. I've been reading the Magic Mountain and Ulysses for 10 years, unable to finish them yet, but I don't feel it's a problem. Just as you, if I try again time after time, it's probably because I know it's worth it somewhere. Incidentally, it's not limited to old books. I had the same trouble with Quicksilver from Neal Stephenson until something cracked and I was able to read the whole baroque cycle in less than 3 months.
- billjings 10y ago
  I wouldn't say that I "got" Ulysses, but I made it through and enjoyed it. That would be my recommendation — not to worry about "getting" it, and just read and enjoy the words on the page, particularly the way they sound. The prose in Ulysses is song-like, it can pull you into a trance. (Much like the _Odyssey_.) Obviously sometimes you have to look up a word, but sometimes it's better to let it go and lose yourself in the effect. I don't know if I'd push myself through to read it nowadays, though. I am more willing to give up on a book now.
soufron 10y ago
I agree. Ursula Le Guin has never been into YA shit.

bmer 10y ago

That's actually...a really good point. It might be that my "it's not novel" feeling is actually "it's too novel (to be comfortable)". Realizing this, it kind of makes me want to rebel against the whole "it feels too old" and actually go re-read some of the stuff that didn't catch my attention before.

aaron695 10y ago
Nah, you were right. But you can get enjoyment from reading hard/old things. Driving to a great view might not be as enjoyable as hiking to an ok view. But Philip K. Dick is crap. Not cool to say it. And like you say might have been great for his time, but try and read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" it's plain awful. But you can't tell me you wouldn't love to see a musket battle, some of the classics are still around because they were good. OT: I find Ursula K. Le Guin work just ok. Very overrated. But it's not hard to read something like Earthsea and you can then say you've done it.
- _mhr_ 10y ago
  PKD has some bad stories, but I think he has a lot of good ones. Electric Sheep isn't one of his good ones, I agree with that. I quite liked most of the stories in Beyond Lies the Wub. An example of a bad story of his from that collection, off the top of my head, is The Indefatigable Frog. That was pretty silly. I encourage you to give Beyond Lies the Wub a shot before writing him off entirely.
- di4na 10y ago
  I personally tend to think that PKD really rushed all his works. And it shows. As a ton of SF, his themes and the ideas behind are still really interesting, but it lacks a ton of polishing work.

daxfohl 10y ago

Aside: I've read the first 100-200 pages of Ulysses seemingly once every year for the last fifteen years trying to "get it" and always end up giving up. (Same for Proust and Pynchon). If you can provide any guidance about what Joyce communicates to you, please do. (Gabriel Garcia Marquez was also in that group for a number of years/readings, but I finally got over the hump and love that style now. To the point that he may be my favorite author. I think Günter Grass was my stepping stone there.)

sxcurry 10y ago
I highly recommend the Re:Joyce podcast by noted Irish author Frank Delaney. He deconstructs Ulysses in a very entertaining manner, 20 minutes at a time. Available at http://blog.frankdelaney.com/re-joyce/ http://blog.frankdelaney.com/re-joyce/ Also, I recommend listening to the Audible version of Ulysses, which I found much easier than reading it in printed form - the language really comes alive.
soufron 10y ago
These books are not easy to read. They ask some work on the part of the reader. It's not entertainment. They bring much more than their story to the table, but they're way harder to read than non-fiction. What you need is time. Lots of time. I've read the complete in search of lost time novels when I was around 15. I found it easy to read because I had nothing else to do. And I am plenty sure it changed a lot of things for me. I've been reading the Magic Mountain and Ulysses for 10 years, unable to finish them yet, but I don't feel it's a problem. Just as you, if I try again time after time, it's probably because I know it's worth it somewhere. Incidentally, it's not limited to old books. I had the same trouble with Quicksilver from Neal Stephenson until something cracked and I was able to read the whole baroque cycle in less than 3 months.
billjings 10y ago
I wouldn't say that I "got" Ulysses, but I made it through and enjoyed it. That would be my recommendation — not to worry about "getting" it, and just read and enjoy the words on the page, particularly the way they sound. The prose in Ulysses is song-like, it can pull you into a trance. (Much like the _Odyssey_.) Obviously sometimes you have to look up a word, but sometimes it's better to let it go and lose yourself in the effect. I don't know if I'd push myself through to read it nowadays, though. I am more willing to give up on a book now.

soufron 10y ago

I agree. Ursula Le Guin has never been into YA shit.