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Talk like this makes me ashamed of my country. I'm not particularly patriotic in the first place, but at least when the Paris attacks happened and one of Hollan

Talk like this makes me ashamed of my country. I'm not particularly patriotic in the first place, but at least when the Paris attacks happened and one of Hollande's first reactions was to say immigration policies would not change, I was proud. When muslims, atheists and christians stood together after the attacks, I was proud. Seeing this demoralizes me. I'm an agnostic. You talk about how "backwards" various things are. You talk about freedom. Yet you are the one imposing dress code. To make a parallel to the world of tech, it's a lot like those "cool startups" where "we don't make you wear a suit & tie", but if you show up without jeans people look down on you. Let people dress however the hell they want already. I don't care if you're wearing a cross necklace and I certainly don't care if you're wearing a giant shirt & cap with a picture of jesus and "I LOVE JESUS" written on the back. And you comparing a traditional clothing to a crusader's robe "that killed hundreds of thousands" is... honestly the most repulsive thing I've read on HN this month. Our women are free, yes. They're free to dress however they want. And if they want to cover themselves head to toe, they're free to do so. Muslim women are especially modest, and see their hair as private. Some women see their legs as private - we're not banning stockings. You don't get to talk about freedom any more than americans do when they parade around bombing countries to "export their freedom", as you so nicely put it.

tajen 10y ago
You've addressed why people should dress the way they want. You haven't addressed terrorism, anti-French attacks and rapes of white people, so you're proposing no solution. After the Paris attacks, I don't remember Hollande being as friendly as you want to make us believe: He also perquisitionned 3200 muslims arbitrarily, and he's probably the cause of the next attack. Hollande is very good at dividing the French people, while blaming it on the others like you're doing. Maybe you drink his cool aid to fast.
- lucd 10y ago
  As the death of Adam Traoré, and Sarkozy aiming for presidential bid.. The question was about burqini, and you disgressed a lot..
- scrollaway 10y ago
  Should I have? We're talking about how people can dress. And how does terrorism factor into dress code, anyway? I thought HN was a site where we could dispense from the "x for the children" / "x against the terrorists" rhetorics. This is the logic I'm getting from you - and please, do correct it if I'm getting it wrong: "Some terrorists are muslim. Muslim women wear hijabs. Hijabs therefore remind you of terrorism." Need I really explain how that logic is harmful? Does arabic script remind you of terrorism too? What should we do about that? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/iv... La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Laïque. Laïcité works both ways - religion stays out of the government, and the government stays out of religion. Edit: > Maybe you drink his cool aid to fast I stay out of french politics (american ones are just so much more entertaining right now) and I have no particular love for Hollande, but his response to the Paris attacks is burned into my mind because it was the first time in a long time I felt proud of my country and president.
  - collyw 10y ago
    I think this article gives a better justification for the thoughts behind ban than the simplistic way that you describe it: http://fitnah.org/fitnah_articles_english/interview_M_H_Lucas.html http://fitnah.org/fitnah_articles_english/interview_M_H_Luca...
    - scrollaway 10y ago
      The ban is extremely complex and I am not talking about its justifications - I am talking about GP's.
  - tajen 10y ago
    > And how does terrorism factor into dress code, anyway? Here our opinions diverge. I think the dress code is like a flag (or a svastika, like @Rasco explained). You defend it isn't. I think a good part of Muslims identify with anti-French causes. You think nothing is going on. I think there's a link between the niqab, the burkini, 8 terrorist attacks by Muslims, Köln's massive "spontaneous" rapes and my 8-years-old goddaughter's rape by a Muslim, all within 2 years. You say there isn't any such relation. I say I'm seeing thousands of Muslims in the street today with conservative outfits they weren't wearing 3 months ago. You say it's peaceful. If all you say is right, then how come we've had terrorist attacks? How can we make sure the niqab/religious support is peaceful? Well, are Muslims at war against France? Let's see: Our president chose to say "we are at war" in his speech, like Bush said in 2001. Such as USA in 2001, our country has then decided to destroy each other with racist restrictions and weapons. You say you agreed with "his response to the Paris attacks". I don't. There was another discourse he could have made about "How all French people are going to gather to help poor schools in the suburbs, which happen to be partly Arabic, so we starve off candidates to terrorism - and when there's equal chances for everyone then we'll be safe from terrorist attacks." I think this would have been more efficient for our taxes and more socialist from him. But Hollande didn't tell those words. He chose to say "we are at war against terrorists" and "we're going to spend 6 billion euros on police". See the difference. I didn't decide the war. But the French people massively gathered behind the president like you did, and you didn't say anything (at least, statistically, only 0.003% of you were there) when 3200 Muslims were house-arrested during the État d'Urgence. I was here to demonstrate, but no-one listened to the peaceful camp who wanted more education for poor people (including potential terrorists). Conclusion: I don't know whether the Arabs of France are at war against the whites, but I know France is at war against Radical Islamists, which is a very badly scoped subset of the Arabic population, so if I were Muslim I would feel threatened anyway. So it's totally plausible that random Muslims identify with the Islamist cause, and even moreso those who were agitate Muslim signs on the street. So, yes, we are at war. Now is the dresscode related to religion and is the behavior related to that war? === Last thing. You say: > I stay out of French politics > I have no particular love for Hollande > I'm an agnostic Let me address this fallacy. I've seen enough people to see a pattern. People who claim this also believe they are very neutral and moderate. But their opinion is strong and dismissive of others. For example you qualified my opinion as "shameful", you probably often dismiss others' opinions as "stupid". For example what did you say for the Brexit? Let me guess that you qualified voters as "fascist", or you assumed they were too old to think right, or too deep in the countryside to have education. Well maybe you could leave the possibility that they've made the vote they indeed wanted to, based of their own very sound reasoning, and that they;re neither shameful, fascist, stupid, senile nor are rednecks. Maybe others have a right to live and have decent opinions that are different than yours, don't you think? You may have built this "I'm center and neutral" opinion through many means. For example you may have the feeling that Le Nouvel Obs or Le Monde are neutral magazines and that Le Monde Diplomatique gathers interesting articles from all opinions around the world. But those 3 examples go from leftish (only criticizing Hollande when it's unavoidable) to extreme-left (Le Monde Dipomatique hasn't quoted an article teaching about economics in years, except to paint bankers as thieves and crooks). If you've been in public schools too, then you've been taught all your life by leftish teachers. So this leaves very little room for accepting the existence of valid opinions in other people. The other side is that in France, beyond what I believe is a djihad, there is also the ambient anti-Christianism that is everywhere, which I'm not sure you're aware of. It may look innocent but when I say I'm a Christian, I've been countless times talked about how "cruisades" or "inquisition" are bad, or I've been answered that "You're Christian, fine, but I'm not, because priests rape children. I completely tolerate your religion, though." - which you don't. Christians in movies are always depicted as stuck-up, and depicted as conservatives in all public litterature. This is where tolerance stops: France has been intolerant about Christians for long, and so-said "agnostic" French people err between not defending us and throwing more prejudices at us. But of course you're all arms up when it's about defending Muslims. So is niqab about defending the right of Muslims to bring their traditions to France, including the right of Arabic people to burn the French flag or praise terrorism? I say yes. You say no. Let's vote.
lucd 10y ago
Exactly, unfortunately there is a blantant lie in France, propagated by our politicians and most of the mass media, for more that twelve years.. Its about secularism implying that religious signs should be banned from the public space.. In fact it is exactly the opposite. I just hope that the wise decision from the "conseil d'état" (roughly the french supreme court) ended this joke... Apparently our politicians like Manuel Valls don't agree they want less and less freedom and human rights.. They're the first to show no respect to secularism, when they express public views regarding religions, publicly participate in religious events, and when they try to meddle with religions (ie: fondation des oeuvres de l'islam en france). A lot of racist hypocrits only care about animal rights when it comes to the muslim ritual slaughtering, and the women's right but just about islamic clothing.. Today secularism is too often anti-muslimism in disguise.. Politicians want the votes from racists, and/or are too happy to divert us from their failure, betrayals, corruption, unkept promises etc.
- fleevy 10y ago
  Caring about animal's/women's rights only when it comes to ritual slaughter/honor killings seems a lot more ethical than claiming to care about them except when it comes to ritual slaughter/honor killings. The latter seems more common among leftist Islamic apologists.
bmer 10y ago
I was about to to make a pretty sarcastic comment on this thread, about how you probably only want to call "The French Number" if you are a white christian/atheist. As a non-white individual whose general group is a target of the sort of attacks you are defending against: thank you. Thank you for not thinking that we (and ALL our predecessors) are (were) incapable of self-reflection, or that we all think (thought) the same way because we "look the same". Vicious comments like that are spreading from the cesspools of reddit and 4chan to a much broader audience, and it can be demoralizing...but that's only if one forgets that most people actually think like you or me. The world will be okay.
p0nce 10y ago
As a french, I agree. Much talk only to assert the fallacy that someone disallowed to dress like she want could possibly be "more free".
Rasco 10y ago
Although I agree with you on the matter of burkini I think the "let people dress however they want" argument is a common fallacy amongst people who defend the burkini that disturbs me. In France (and other countries) we have already been setting specific legal rules on how to dress : for instance it is illegal to wear nazi uniforms or svastika (unless for historical reason). Note that this is for the sake of the argument, to say that there is no such thing as an absolute freedom on how to dress and some reasons may explain that. If a clothing does not respect the conditions then I don't care wether or not it is a religious clothing and disappoint the believers. What are these conditions ? There is a safety condition : if a clothing put public safety in danger then it should be banned period. The burqa and niqab ban (late 2010 in France) falls into this one. And I am not talking about terrorism but everyday life : you are supposed to live in the public space with your face uncovered that's all. The burkini and hijab are obviously fine with this. There is a secularism reason that is invoked by some people and officials for the burkini ban and indeed I find it to be hypocritical since it is more of a circumstance decision (and there are other things than that to do to fight terrorism but whatever) and it can't be justified by secularism which only restricts civil servants clothing. If people want secularism to apply to civilian in the public sphere why not but it must be clear (define precisely what is ostentatious proselytism) and consistent : if we are to ban hijab we must ban kippas and nun's "outfit" too. Then there is the ideology propaganda and morality question. To say that there is nothing wrong with the burqa is hypocritical too, because it has been and is still a mean to oppress women (watch the numerous photos of women burning burqas recently in Syria or read "Bas les voiles !" by Chahdortt Djavann if you need to be convinced). Stating that "yes maybe in the Middle-East women are forced to wear it but I am in France and just want to decide what to wear" is like saying "yes I know the Nazis ideology is awful but for me the svastika is just a peace symbol from India and I want to wear it because I like it". Ok maybe you are a genuine and sane person but as a natural person evolving in the public space the clothes you wear don't affect only yourself. Ideologies don't stop at boarders. Criticizing this way of forbidding clothings may make sense from an american point of view where people can wear ku klux klan dress freely. But it is not absurd and not automatically discriminatory in a more european or french spirit.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  I would really like to invite you to speak to muslim women about this. Ask them their opinion about the veil - the ones that wear it. Ask them why they wear it. Ask them how they would feel about removing it in public. I'm absolutely in favour of removing female oppression from middle-eastern culture. This is not the way to go about it. I have seen that oppression, second hand, and I despise it... this burqa bullshit is such a red herring, it honestly upsets me so much time is wasted on it. These are societies where there is very little personal freedom, especially for women, and people want to remove one of the freedoms they do have. And yes, I can see the point re nazi/KKK outfits. My personal opinion on that aside, we're not talking about a handful of people wearing a certain cloth in order to make a political/xenophobic point. We're talking about millions of people, following their faith. Entire countries. Here's the catch: I dislike burqas. I do think they are a symbol of control rather than faith. But this isn't about my opinion, it's about the right for these women to choose to remove it by themselves rather than have a bunch of ignorants make that choice for them (sounds familiar?). They can wear it, they can burn it, it is not my place to say.
minipci1321 10y ago
Listening to both sides, trying to understand them, work on a short-term compromise while simultaneously setting bases for a long-term real solution -- such is a path to enlightenment. Dismissing someone's opinion on an emotional pretext, pretending the problem doesn't exist because the initial condition was ill-formulated -- is not. How much of reactions of French commenters here are due to the complex of french people working abroad (or with people from abroad) -- always feel the need to justify and defend France? Emotions are a by-product of a brain metabolism. Please, let us leave this sort of defense to the Constitutional Court, it has been doing a pretty good job at it, France still is a free country.

tajen 10y ago

You've addressed why people should dress the way they want. You haven't addressed terrorism, anti-French attacks and rapes of white people, so you're proposing no solution. After the Paris attacks, I don't remember Hollande being as friendly as you want to make us believe: He also perquisitionned 3200 muslims arbitrarily, and he's probably the cause of the next attack. Hollande is very good at dividing the French people, while blaming it on the others like you're doing. Maybe you drink his cool aid to fast.

lucd 10y ago
As the death of Adam Traoré, and Sarkozy aiming for presidential bid.. The question was about burqini, and you disgressed a lot..
scrollaway 10y ago
Should I have? We're talking about how people can dress. And how does terrorism factor into dress code, anyway? I thought HN was a site where we could dispense from the "x for the children" / "x against the terrorists" rhetorics. This is the logic I'm getting from you - and please, do correct it if I'm getting it wrong: "Some terrorists are muslim. Muslim women wear hijabs. Hijabs therefore remind you of terrorism." Need I really explain how that logic is harmful? Does arabic script remind you of terrorism too? What should we do about that? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/iv... La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Laïque. Laïcité works both ways - religion stays out of the government, and the government stays out of religion. Edit: > Maybe you drink his cool aid to fast I stay out of french politics (american ones are just so much more entertaining right now) and I have no particular love for Hollande, but his response to the Paris attacks is burned into my mind because it was the first time in a long time I felt proud of my country and president.
- collyw 10y ago
  I think this article gives a better justification for the thoughts behind ban than the simplistic way that you describe it: http://fitnah.org/fitnah_articles_english/interview_M_H_Lucas.html http://fitnah.org/fitnah_articles_english/interview_M_H_Luca...
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    The ban is extremely complex and I am not talking about its justifications - I am talking about GP's.
- tajen 10y ago
  > And how does terrorism factor into dress code, anyway? Here our opinions diverge. I think the dress code is like a flag (or a svastika, like @Rasco explained). You defend it isn't. I think a good part of Muslims identify with anti-French causes. You think nothing is going on. I think there's a link between the niqab, the burkini, 8 terrorist attacks by Muslims, Köln's massive "spontaneous" rapes and my 8-years-old goddaughter's rape by a Muslim, all within 2 years. You say there isn't any such relation. I say I'm seeing thousands of Muslims in the street today with conservative outfits they weren't wearing 3 months ago. You say it's peaceful. If all you say is right, then how come we've had terrorist attacks? How can we make sure the niqab/religious support is peaceful? Well, are Muslims at war against France? Let's see: Our president chose to say "we are at war" in his speech, like Bush said in 2001. Such as USA in 2001, our country has then decided to destroy each other with racist restrictions and weapons. You say you agreed with "his response to the Paris attacks". I don't. There was another discourse he could have made about "How all French people are going to gather to help poor schools in the suburbs, which happen to be partly Arabic, so we starve off candidates to terrorism - and when there's equal chances for everyone then we'll be safe from terrorist attacks." I think this would have been more efficient for our taxes and more socialist from him. But Hollande didn't tell those words. He chose to say "we are at war against terrorists" and "we're going to spend 6 billion euros on police". See the difference. I didn't decide the war. But the French people massively gathered behind the president like you did, and you didn't say anything (at least, statistically, only 0.003% of you were there) when 3200 Muslims were house-arrested during the État d'Urgence. I was here to demonstrate, but no-one listened to the peaceful camp who wanted more education for poor people (including potential terrorists). Conclusion: I don't know whether the Arabs of France are at war against the whites, but I know France is at war against Radical Islamists, which is a very badly scoped subset of the Arabic population, so if I were Muslim I would feel threatened anyway. So it's totally plausible that random Muslims identify with the Islamist cause, and even moreso those who were agitate Muslim signs on the street. So, yes, we are at war. Now is the dresscode related to religion and is the behavior related to that war? === Last thing. You say: > I stay out of French politics > I have no particular love for Hollande > I'm an agnostic Let me address this fallacy. I've seen enough people to see a pattern. People who claim this also believe they are very neutral and moderate. But their opinion is strong and dismissive of others. For example you qualified my opinion as "shameful", you probably often dismiss others' opinions as "stupid". For example what did you say for the Brexit? Let me guess that you qualified voters as "fascist", or you assumed they were too old to think right, or too deep in the countryside to have education. Well maybe you could leave the possibility that they've made the vote they indeed wanted to, based of their own very sound reasoning, and that they;re neither shameful, fascist, stupid, senile nor are rednecks. Maybe others have a right to live and have decent opinions that are different than yours, don't you think? You may have built this "I'm center and neutral" opinion through many means. For example you may have the feeling that Le Nouvel Obs or Le Monde are neutral magazines and that Le Monde Diplomatique gathers interesting articles from all opinions around the world. But those 3 examples go from leftish (only criticizing Hollande when it's unavoidable) to extreme-left (Le Monde Dipomatique hasn't quoted an article teaching about economics in years, except to paint bankers as thieves and crooks). If you've been in public schools too, then you've been taught all your life by leftish teachers. So this leaves very little room for accepting the existence of valid opinions in other people. The other side is that in France, beyond what I believe is a djihad, there is also the ambient anti-Christianism that is everywhere, which I'm not sure you're aware of. It may look innocent but when I say I'm a Christian, I've been countless times talked about how "cruisades" or "inquisition" are bad, or I've been answered that "You're Christian, fine, but I'm not, because priests rape children. I completely tolerate your religion, though." - which you don't. Christians in movies are always depicted as stuck-up, and depicted as conservatives in all public litterature. This is where tolerance stops: France has been intolerant about Christians for long, and so-said "agnostic" French people err between not defending us and throwing more prejudices at us. But of course you're all arms up when it's about defending Muslims. So is niqab about defending the right of Muslims to bring their traditions to France, including the right of Arabic people to burn the French flag or praise terrorism? I say yes. You say no. Let's vote.

lucd 10y ago

Exactly, unfortunately there is a blantant lie in France, propagated by our politicians and most of the mass media, for more that twelve years.. Its about secularism implying that religious signs should be banned from the public space.. In fact it is exactly the opposite. I just hope that the wise decision from the "conseil d'état" (roughly the french supreme court) ended this joke... Apparently our politicians like Manuel Valls don't agree they want less and less freedom and human rights.. They're the first to show no respect to secularism, when they express public views regarding religions, publicly participate in religious events, and when they try to meddle with religions (ie: fondation des oeuvres de l'islam en france). A lot of racist hypocrits only care about animal rights when it comes to the muslim ritual slaughtering, and the women's right but just about islamic clothing.. Today secularism is too often anti-muslimism in disguise.. Politicians want the votes from racists, and/or are too happy to divert us from their failure, betrayals, corruption, unkept promises etc.

fleevy 10y ago
Caring about animal's/women's rights only when it comes to ritual slaughter/honor killings seems a lot more ethical than claiming to care about them except when it comes to ritual slaughter/honor killings. The latter seems more common among leftist Islamic apologists.

bmer 10y ago

I was about to to make a pretty sarcastic comment on this thread, about how you probably only want to call "The French Number" if you are a white christian/atheist. As a non-white individual whose general group is a target of the sort of attacks you are defending against: thank you. Thank you for not thinking that we (and ALL our predecessors) are (were) incapable of self-reflection, or that we all think (thought) the same way because we "look the same". Vicious comments like that are spreading from the cesspools of reddit and 4chan to a much broader audience, and it can be demoralizing...but that's only if one forgets that most people actually think like you or me. The world will be okay.

p0nce 10y ago

As a french, I agree. Much talk only to assert the fallacy that someone disallowed to dress like she want could possibly be "more free".

Rasco 10y ago

Although I agree with you on the matter of burkini I think the "let people dress however they want" argument is a common fallacy amongst people who defend the burkini that disturbs me. In France (and other countries) we have already been setting specific legal rules on how to dress : for instance it is illegal to wear nazi uniforms or svastika (unless for historical reason). Note that this is for the sake of the argument, to say that there is no such thing as an absolute freedom on how to dress and some reasons may explain that. If a clothing does not respect the conditions then I don't care wether or not it is a religious clothing and disappoint the believers. What are these conditions ? There is a safety condition : if a clothing put public safety in danger then it should be banned period. The burqa and niqab ban (late 2010 in France) falls into this one. And I am not talking about terrorism but everyday life : you are supposed to live in the public space with your face uncovered that's all. The burkini and hijab are obviously fine with this. There is a secularism reason that is invoked by some people and officials for the burkini ban and indeed I find it to be hypocritical since it is more of a circumstance decision (and there are other things than that to do to fight terrorism but whatever) and it can't be justified by secularism which only restricts civil servants clothing. If people want secularism to apply to civilian in the public sphere why not but it must be clear (define precisely what is ostentatious proselytism) and consistent : if we are to ban hijab we must ban kippas and nun's "outfit" too. Then there is the ideology propaganda and morality question. To say that there is nothing wrong with the burqa is hypocritical too, because it has been and is still a mean to oppress women (watch the numerous photos of women burning burqas recently in Syria or read "Bas les voiles !" by Chahdortt Djavann if you need to be convinced). Stating that "yes maybe in the Middle-East women are forced to wear it but I am in France and just want to decide what to wear" is like saying "yes I know the Nazis ideology is awful but for me the svastika is just a peace symbol from India and I want to wear it because I like it". Ok maybe you are a genuine and sane person but as a natural person evolving in the public space the clothes you wear don't affect only yourself. Ideologies don't stop at boarders. Criticizing this way of forbidding clothings may make sense from an american point of view where people can wear ku klux klan dress freely. But it is not absurd and not automatically discriminatory in a more european or french spirit.

scrollaway 10y ago
I would really like to invite you to speak to muslim women about this. Ask them their opinion about the veil - the ones that wear it. Ask them why they wear it. Ask them how they would feel about removing it in public. I'm absolutely in favour of removing female oppression from middle-eastern culture. This is not the way to go about it. I have seen that oppression, second hand, and I despise it... this burqa bullshit is such a red herring, it honestly upsets me so much time is wasted on it. These are societies where there is very little personal freedom, especially for women, and people want to remove one of the freedoms they do have. And yes, I can see the point re nazi/KKK outfits. My personal opinion on that aside, we're not talking about a handful of people wearing a certain cloth in order to make a political/xenophobic point. We're talking about millions of people, following their faith. Entire countries. Here's the catch: I dislike burqas. I do think they are a symbol of control rather than faith. But this isn't about my opinion, it's about the right for these women to choose to remove it by themselves rather than have a bunch of ignorants make that choice for them (sounds familiar?). They can wear it, they can burn it, it is not my place to say.

minipci1321 10y ago

Listening to both sides, trying to understand them, work on a short-term compromise while simultaneously setting bases for a long-term real solution -- such is a path to enlightenment. Dismissing someone's opinion on an emotional pretext, pretending the problem doesn't exist because the initial condition was ill-formulated -- is not. How much of reactions of French commenters here are due to the complex of french people working abroad (or with people from abroad) -- always feel the need to justify and defend France? Emotions are a by-product of a brain metabolism. Please, let us leave this sort of defense to the Constitutional Court, it has been doing a pretty good job at it, France still is a free country.