6 ms·

There are two things that needs to come in western pop music to kind of renew it : oriental tuning ( quarters tones, like you can hear in indian or chineese mus

by bsaul 10y ago

There are two things that needs to come in western pop music to kind of renew it : oriental tuning ( quarters tones, like you can hear in indian or chineese music), but this one may take a while because ot actually sound like a bad note if you mix it with our scales. And the second is non conventional time signatures, meaning different than 3/4 or 4/4. The only popular song i know which has a different beat is "money" fromp pink floyd, which is a 7/4 and sounds good. So it is possible to use at least this new time signature.

bluetwo 10y ago
Fair number songs use other time signatures. http://www.songfacts.com/category-songs_with_unusual_time_signatures.php http://www.songfacts.com/category-songs_with_unusual_time_si... Many more play with the 8-bar structure. But don't hold your breath for oriental tuning. I don't see any reason why that would ever catch on. ick.
- bsaul 10y ago
  Thanks for the link. One remark thoug / I've looked at some song from famoust bands, and i saw things like "3/4" or 6/8 ( which was in fact more like a 4/4 with strong 1 and 3 hits, filled with a ternary drum pattern) , flagged as unusual time signature... The other were indeed made by famous artists ( such as bjork) but the songs themselves weren't popular... Anyway, let's hope people continue to try. You'd probably need to invent a dance for the thing to catch on in pop music. Jazz has been doing much more ambitious things for decades now, it's scary to see how long it can take for "mainstream" to cacth up..
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "Jazz has been doing much more ambitious things for decades now, it's scary to see how long it can take for "mainstream" to cacth up.." You are really missing the point of music. Music isn't something that only reaches its pinnacle when it's at its most complex. Technical excellence isn't the high watermark of great music. The only thing that matters in music is how it makes you feel. Also, simplicity can be deceptive. Take a listen to this k.d. lang song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqPjx94YMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqPjx94YMg Listen to how natural her vocal sounds, how well it fits the song and the lyrics, how she varies her vocals based on what she's singing. Skill with phrasing is the hardest to teach because it comes with musical awareness, but when you listen to someone with great phrasing it can bring a whole piece of music to life. So instead of talking about what music "should be", share what you enjoy, and not just what you enjoy on an intellectual level, what you enjoy for what it conjures within you. What music do you enjoy?
    - bsaul 10y ago
      the "point" of music ? to me music is an art form,like painting. So you may say that the goal of painting is to have something pretty to put on your walls, which is indeed one way to look at it, but painters usually think of some higher goals. now, if pop music was vibrant and renewing itself constantly, i wouldn't have said anything, but as OP shows, it is kind of dying artisticaly..
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        > "but painters usually think of some higher goals." Whilst some artists may be satisfied with the concept itself being the artistic statement, the highest art is all about eliciting a emotional reaction from the viewer, otherwise what's the point of creating the painting? If you want to look at it from the point of view of skill, the hardest skill to master is to create art that can communicate to the viewer without explanation, where the reaction to the art is the experience, rather than the explanation of the art being the experience. The best visual art communicates something that you can't easily express with words. It's the same with music. > "now, if pop music was vibrant and renewing itself constantly, i wouldn't have said anything, but as OP shows, it is kind of dying artisticaly.." I've been listening to pop music long enough to be sure it's not dying in the way you describe, it moves in cycles. Trends rise in popularity, get played to death, and new trends arise. You see it all the time in pop music.
  - ehnto 10y ago
    I think you misunderstand the tendencies of mainstream music. It isn't that it is lagging behind, in fact looking to the past you see much more complicated and interesting song structures. The more likely scenario is that pop music or mainstream music has trended away from anything too complicated. Aiming instead for reproduceable hits and music that is as least alienating as possible. Every now and then an interesting song will make it to the pop stations, but it is rare. Not to worry though, because you need only scratch past the surface to see that the music world (not industry) is alive, vibrant and more diverse and complex than ever.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "But don't hold your breath for oriental tuning. I don't see any reason why that would ever catch on. ick." I can understand your personal preference. That said, I think the ear is more adaptable than you might think, I've found myself enjoying music that employs microtones. To give one example, here's some Turkish music played on microtonal guitar: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI
  - jdminhbg 10y ago
    Listening to that, the microtones remind me of bends on guitar solos in popular Western music. So maybe we don't officially use them, but I think they do appear more than we might realize.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      Yeah, quarter note bends are common in blues guitar, and by extension blues-rock and rock. This video gives a simple introduction to what these sound like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihZTuRmmBxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihZTuRmmBxA As another example, honky-tonk piano can be out of tune compared to standard piano tuning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_piano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_piano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUP6k5xkdBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUP6k5xkdBU There's also been some Eastern influence on the vocals of Western singers. For example, Jeff Buckley talked of being inspired by the Sufi singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Here's Jeff Buckley covering a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58E-9ZEw-yQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58E-9ZEw-yQ
  - bluetwo 10y ago
    Seems like they just reinvented the lute. There's a reason no one but Sting plays it.
dest 10y ago
The only 1/4 tone trumpetist Ibrahim Maalouf is now quite recognized in Europe. Check his discography if you don't know his music
- bsaul 10y ago
  I know, i've heard him and it became kind of a gimmick ( but it's still great nonetheless). He's still considered as a jazz musician though. In truth, I was hoping that with the trend of electronic music escaping the world of harmony more and more and reaching toward pure "tone" /timbre + rythm music, pop would try and grab ideas from there. But it takes time i guess..
colanderman 10y ago
I don't think you listen to enough pop music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL2rytTraA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL2rytTraA Non-conventional time signatures are much more difficult though, because then everyone has to learn how to dance differently. Unless you're Bulgarian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESGWuxnDbXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESGWuxnDbXs
ZenoArrow 10y ago
Music thankfully isn't driven by musical technicality. You can have great music which fits into 4/4 and the western scale and still sounds fresh. Music doesn't need to be "renewed" in the way you describe. That being said, there are far more examples of pop music outside 4/4, 3/4 and the western scale out there than just Time by Pink Floyd. To give some of my favourite examples... Alice In Chains - Them Bones (I believe this is in 5/4): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuD8k3JvxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuD8k3JvxQ Perfume - Polyrhythm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbiSxunJatM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbiSxunJatM The Marty Friedman cover is pretty good rock interpretation if you don't like J-Pop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE5zhVPOcZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE5zhVPOcZA Dream Theater - Learning To Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VigPPJ6j40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VigPPJ6j40 To get an idea of the time signatures involved in Learning To Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfWdOBYk6g4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfWdOBYk6g4
- ende 10y ago
  Don't forget Apocalypse in 9/8 from Supper's Ready by Genesis.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    I'm not forgetting anything, I was talking about my personal favourites, there are plenty more great songs in time signatures other than 4/4 and 3/4.
    - ende 10y ago
      I'm not actually implying you were, I just needed a thread to attach my personal favorite odd time signature example to and you had a great list going. We could do one of those cheesy "Best Of ____" anthology CD box set commercials that come on TV after midnight. 'Irregular time signature hits of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and today!' ;)
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
Roboprog 10y ago
You want time signatures? I'll give you time signatures :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e14ublpOG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e14ublpOG8 (Rush, La Villa Strangiato live) In fairness, "listening" music and dance music are different beasts, though (and rightly so). This ain't dance music.
swift 10y ago
The Mars Volta uses plenty of unconventional time signatures and scales and they've managed to get played on the radio and MTV, so there's at least one modern popular band that pulled it off. I wish it was more common.
DonaldFisk 10y ago
See-Saw by Pink Floyd has constantly changing time signatures throughout the song. Much of Golden Brown by the Stranglers is 3x3/4, then 4/4 (so 13/4).
niccl 10y ago
time signature: Golden Brown by the Stranglers. It's got a bit that's arguably 13/4 (actually 3 * 3/4 plus 1 * 4/4) but it's delightfully quirky And then there's Take Five by Dave Brubeck that I think even some of the younger people still recognise. Actually maybe this just shows I'm an old fart

by bsaul 10y ago

bluetwo 10y ago

Fair number songs use other time signatures. http://www.songfacts.com/category-songs_with_unusual_time_signatures.php http://www.songfacts.com/category-songs_with_unusual_time_si... Many more play with the 8-bar structure. But don't hold your breath for oriental tuning. I don't see any reason why that would ever catch on. ick.

bsaul 10y ago
Thanks for the link. One remark thoug / I've looked at some song from famoust bands, and i saw things like "3/4" or 6/8 ( which was in fact more like a 4/4 with strong 1 and 3 hits, filled with a ternary drum pattern) , flagged as unusual time signature... The other were indeed made by famous artists ( such as bjork) but the songs themselves weren't popular... Anyway, let's hope people continue to try. You'd probably need to invent a dance for the thing to catch on in pop music. Jazz has been doing much more ambitious things for decades now, it's scary to see how long it can take for "mainstream" to cacth up..
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "Jazz has been doing much more ambitious things for decades now, it's scary to see how long it can take for "mainstream" to cacth up.." You are really missing the point of music. Music isn't something that only reaches its pinnacle when it's at its most complex. Technical excellence isn't the high watermark of great music. The only thing that matters in music is how it makes you feel. Also, simplicity can be deceptive. Take a listen to this k.d. lang song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqPjx94YMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqPjx94YMg Listen to how natural her vocal sounds, how well it fits the song and the lyrics, how she varies her vocals based on what she's singing. Skill with phrasing is the hardest to teach because it comes with musical awareness, but when you listen to someone with great phrasing it can bring a whole piece of music to life. So instead of talking about what music "should be", share what you enjoy, and not just what you enjoy on an intellectual level, what you enjoy for what it conjures within you. What music do you enjoy?
  - bsaul 10y ago
    the "point" of music ? to me music is an art form,like painting. So you may say that the goal of painting is to have something pretty to put on your walls, which is indeed one way to look at it, but painters usually think of some higher goals. now, if pop music was vibrant and renewing itself constantly, i wouldn't have said anything, but as OP shows, it is kind of dying artisticaly..
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      > "but painters usually think of some higher goals." Whilst some artists may be satisfied with the concept itself being the artistic statement, the highest art is all about eliciting a emotional reaction from the viewer, otherwise what's the point of creating the painting? If you want to look at it from the point of view of skill, the hardest skill to master is to create art that can communicate to the viewer without explanation, where the reaction to the art is the experience, rather than the explanation of the art being the experience. The best visual art communicates something that you can't easily express with words. It's the same with music. > "now, if pop music was vibrant and renewing itself constantly, i wouldn't have said anything, but as OP shows, it is kind of dying artisticaly.." I've been listening to pop music long enough to be sure it's not dying in the way you describe, it moves in cycles. Trends rise in popularity, get played to death, and new trends arise. You see it all the time in pop music.
- ehnto 10y ago
  I think you misunderstand the tendencies of mainstream music. It isn't that it is lagging behind, in fact looking to the past you see much more complicated and interesting song structures. The more likely scenario is that pop music or mainstream music has trended away from anything too complicated. Aiming instead for reproduceable hits and music that is as least alienating as possible. Every now and then an interesting song will make it to the pop stations, but it is rare. Not to worry though, because you need only scratch past the surface to see that the music world (not industry) is alive, vibrant and more diverse and complex than ever.
ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "But don't hold your breath for oriental tuning. I don't see any reason why that would ever catch on. ick." I can understand your personal preference. That said, I think the ear is more adaptable than you might think, I've found myself enjoying music that employs microtones. To give one example, here's some Turkish music played on microtonal guitar: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI
- jdminhbg 10y ago
  Listening to that, the microtones remind me of bends on guitar solos in popular Western music. So maybe we don't officially use them, but I think they do appear more than we might realize.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    Yeah, quarter note bends are common in blues guitar, and by extension blues-rock and rock. This video gives a simple introduction to what these sound like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihZTuRmmBxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihZTuRmmBxA As another example, honky-tonk piano can be out of tune compared to standard piano tuning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_piano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_piano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUP6k5xkdBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUP6k5xkdBU There's also been some Eastern influence on the vocals of Western singers. For example, Jeff Buckley talked of being inspired by the Sufi singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Here's Jeff Buckley covering a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58E-9ZEw-yQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58E-9ZEw-yQ
- bluetwo 10y ago
  Seems like they just reinvented the lute. There's a reason no one but Sting plays it.

dest 10y ago

The only 1/4 tone trumpetist Ibrahim Maalouf is now quite recognized in Europe. Check his discography if you don't know his music

bsaul 10y ago
I know, i've heard him and it became kind of a gimmick ( but it's still great nonetheless). He's still considered as a jazz musician though. In truth, I was hoping that with the trend of electronic music escaping the world of harmony more and more and reaching toward pure "tone" /timbre + rythm music, pop would try and grab ideas from there. But it takes time i guess..

colanderman 10y ago

I don't think you listen to enough pop music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL2rytTraA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL2rytTraA Non-conventional time signatures are much more difficult though, because then everyone has to learn how to dance differently. Unless you're Bulgarian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESGWuxnDbXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESGWuxnDbXs

ZenoArrow 10y ago

Music thankfully isn't driven by musical technicality. You can have great music which fits into 4/4 and the western scale and still sounds fresh. Music doesn't need to be "renewed" in the way you describe. That being said, there are far more examples of pop music outside 4/4, 3/4 and the western scale out there than just Time by Pink Floyd. To give some of my favourite examples... Alice In Chains - Them Bones (I believe this is in 5/4): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuD8k3JvxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuD8k3JvxQ Perfume - Polyrhythm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbiSxunJatM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbiSxunJatM The Marty Friedman cover is pretty good rock interpretation if you don't like J-Pop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE5zhVPOcZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE5zhVPOcZA Dream Theater - Learning To Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VigPPJ6j40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VigPPJ6j40 To get an idea of the time signatures involved in Learning To Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfWdOBYk6g4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfWdOBYk6g4

ende 10y ago
Don't forget Apocalypse in 9/8 from Supper's Ready by Genesis.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  I'm not forgetting anything, I was talking about my personal favourites, there are plenty more great songs in time signatures other than 4/4 and 3/4.
  - ende 10y ago
    I'm not actually implying you were, I just needed a thread to attach my personal favorite odd time signature example to and you had a great list going. We could do one of those cheesy "Best Of ____" anthology CD box set commercials that come on TV after midnight. 'Irregular time signature hits of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and today!' ;)
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago

Roboprog 10y ago

You want time signatures? I'll give you time signatures :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e14ublpOG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e14ublpOG8 (Rush, La Villa Strangiato live) In fairness, "listening" music and dance music are different beasts, though (and rightly so). This ain't dance music.

swift 10y ago

The Mars Volta uses plenty of unconventional time signatures and scales and they've managed to get played on the radio and MTV, so there's at least one modern popular band that pulled it off. I wish it was more common.

DonaldFisk 10y ago

See-Saw by Pink Floyd has constantly changing time signatures throughout the song. Much of Golden Brown by the Stranglers is 3x3/4, then 4/4 (so 13/4).

niccl 10y ago

time signature: Golden Brown by the Stranglers. It's got a bit that's arguably 13/4 (actually 3 * 3/4 plus 1 * 4/4) but it's delightfully quirky And then there's Take Five by Dave Brubeck that I think even some of the younger people still recognise. Actually maybe this just shows I'm an old fart