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China can't be innovative because they lack the cultural foundation for it. Innovation requires creativity, critical thinking, outside the box thinking, etc etc

China can't be innovative because they lack the cultural foundation for it. Innovation requires creativity, critical thinking, outside the box thinking, etc etc etc... All things which China's PRC sees as a threat to their power so they squash it down. They want flesh robots, not revolutions. So they have to steal IPs to be competitive. Whether it's plans for the space shuttle or the latest iPhone, China will steal literally anything with virtually no shame. Unfortunately, they don't see the side-effect of this IP theft. That is, it reduces innovation even more. When you shortcut your way to the top (or in this case, the middle), you don't have that same foundation for innovation. A huge part of innovation is the process itself -- it lays the foundation for future innovations. A framework or path. That foundation is just as, if not more important that the innovation itself. And that's what China is missing out on. They're being left behind while IP theft is going to get harder and harder for them as countries/businesses wise-up.

kalleboo 10y ago
Weren't people saying the same thing about the Japanese 30 years ago?
- beachstartup 10y ago
  and japan, and taiwan, and singapore,and south korea, and hong kong before the handover. these articles are a cottage industry. just apply some racial stereotypes to whatever country you want to spotlight, generate some controversy and fear, and profit.
- 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
  I think 30 years ago such talk would have mostly targeted Koreans. By then Japanese companies were fairly well-regarded (having had their own bumpy starts in previous decades). If anything I recall the perception in the '80s being that the Japanese were too good and would take over western economies.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Yes they did. It's true if you're behind the state of the art you copy whoever is out in front. Because there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Once you catch up, though, you start doing your own R&D because it makes sense to do so. That's what the Japanese did, that's what the Koreans did, and that's what the Chinese will do when they feel they've learned everything they can from manufacturers in other countries. It's going to take awhile, though. Chinese companies are having problems filling slots at the very top of the high tech skill ladder. A relative of mine works for a company that moved an optics manufacturing operation from China to Switzerland for cost reasons. The particular expertise they needed is rare in China, and people who have it can write their own ticket.
  - mahranch 10y ago
    This is completely nonsense. Japan did not commit mass espionage and IP theft. Copying? Reverse-engineering? Sure, what country doesn't do that? That's the baseline. China is doing something completely different and on an entirely different level. The sheer volume and amount of IP theft and espionage they engage in is jaw-dropping. Whether they're using useful idiots/nationalists to steal the space shuttle plans, or running their hacker groups targeting corporate/governmental entities 24/7/365, it's moronic to equate that to Japan in the 70s/80s. Again, Japan wasn't known for their espionage efforts because they engaged in so little in comparison with everyone else. Hell, Russia was the bigger threat in the 80s thanks to the cold war. Japan was a complete non-factor. Japan had a growing economy that people were scared would supplant the U.S but that's where the similarities end. I'm befuddled how this nonsense is allowed to stand here on hackernews. It's reddit level garbage.
    - gozur88 10y ago
      >This is completely nonsense. Japan did not commit mass espionage and IP theft. "Espionage"? I looked back through my post and didn't see that word anywhere. >Copying? Reverse-engineering? Sure, what country doesn't do that? Yes... and that was the point. >I'm befuddled how this nonsense is allowed to stand here on hackernews. It's reddit level garbage. Yes... yes it is.
- mahranch 10y ago
  Not even close. You can't be serious. China and Japan are nothing alike and any comparisons would be entirely irrelevant. For starters, Japan is a capitalistic economy with a democratic government. That alone is enough complexity to make any china >> japan comparison invalid. But just for a cherry on top; Japan 30 years ago wasn't known for excessive espionage and IP theft. Sure, all countries do it but China has taken IP theft to the next level -- their entire economy is practically based on it. Tell me, when was the last time you bought a knock-off from Japan? 30 years ago, knock-offs didn't come from Japan, they came from Singapore, Indonesia, Cambodia, China, Laos and a few other poor SE asian countries. But not Japan.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    Sorry as another commenter pointed out, 30 years ago was a bit too late, add another 10 years. 40 years ago Japanese TVs and cars were complete knockoffs. They did the same stuff China is doing today. "Partnerships" and then suddenly suspiciously similar designs. > China and Japan are nothing alike and any comparisons would be entirely irrelevant My point isn't that China will follow the same steps as Japan. My point is that you couldn't predict Japan's trajectory - first people said they made crap knockoffs and exploited American free trade deals to dump prices, then when they started innovating, everyone said they were going to take over the world, and then suddenly Japan stagnated. My only prediction is that China's future is just as uncertain, and any predictions are completely pulled out of anyone's ass.
jaimeog 10y ago
For most of human history China has been the most innovative country in the world. It has only been over the last several hundred years that this has not been the case. So claiming lack of cultural foundation for innovation is just wrong. "Gunpowder, the magnetic compass, and paper and printing, which Francis Bacon considered as the three most important inventions facilitating the West's transformation from the Dark Ages to the modern world, were invented in China" Joseph Needham points this out magnificently in his magnum opus, "Science and Civilization in China". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham#Science_and_Civilisation_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham#Science_and_Civ...
- jordanb 10y ago
  For most of history China didn't have the CCP. During the great leap forward Mao had all the sparrows killed. He then had to beg the soviet union to send him sparrows to replace the ones he killed. Then during the cultural revolution he killed all the intellectuals. They've never been replaced.
  - jaimeog 10y ago
    > For most of history China didn't have the CCP. Firstly, Mao's China/CCP is completely different to the modern day China/CCP. Secondly, why is the CCP any worse than other periods in Chinese history? There have been many periods more oppressive and less democratic than the post-Mao CCP. > Mao had all the sparrows killed. I don't see how killing sparrows under Mao relates to the subject at hand. Yes, Mao's period was crazy, but Chinese history is full of such events. > he killed all the intellectuals This simply isn't true though. Yes, some intellectuals were killed and many more subject to physical and mental abuse, but to say "all" were killed is absurd.
    - mahranch 10y ago
      95% of our technological jumps and innovation throughout history have happened within the last 100 years. Coincidentally, those are the years China has been a non-factor. You say China has been the world's leading innovator throughout history, but what exactly did they accomplish within those 5000 years? Not much. With that said, the current PRC is stifling innovation, creativity and freedom. They have 1 billion people; China should be the most innovative country on the planet with all those chances for genius. Think of all the chances for Einstein, Hawking or bill gates... But what comes out of China? What product, computer program or device is China known for? Why aren't they inventing the latest iPhone, Windows OS, Mercedes Benz or Viagra? Why aren't they writing the next Game Of Thrones (can't with all the censorship going on) or bringing us the next high capacity lithium battery? Or Carbon Nanotubes? China isn't known for innovation in virtually any industry. They always rank near the bottom when it comes to innovation. And why is that? It's because the PRC stifles their society with all the controls and limits their creativity. Everything has to be government approved, and go through miles of bureaucracy (or straight up corruption/bribes). People forget, China ranks 100th on the corruption index released by transparency.org. There are 99 countries less corrupt than China. > Yes, some intellectuals were killed and many more subject to physical and mental abuse, but to say "all" were killed is absurd. Worse, he killed intellectualism itself. While he may not have killed every intellectual, their society isn't set up for individuality and creativity -- things which breed intellectualism.
kalleboo 10y ago
> Innovation requires creativity, critical thinking, outside the box thinking, etc etc etc... All things which China's PRC sees as a threat to their power so they squash it down Look up the latest thread on the American education system. You'll find a large proportion of the comments claim that the same thing has been going on in America ever since education was socialized. I live in Japan. By any outside measure, this country has zero critical or out of the box thinking, and has a complete groupthink culture. And yet it's been a major source of progress. I wouldn't count out human nature. Their biggest threat would be brain drain, but the US hates immigrants these days, which really plays in their favor.

kalleboo 10y ago

Weren't people saying the same thing about the Japanese 30 years ago?

beachstartup 10y ago
and japan, and taiwan, and singapore,and south korea, and hong kong before the handover. these articles are a cottage industry. just apply some racial stereotypes to whatever country you want to spotlight, generate some controversy and fear, and profit.
0xcde4c3db 10y ago
I think 30 years ago such talk would have mostly targeted Koreans. By then Japanese companies were fairly well-regarded (having had their own bumpy starts in previous decades). If anything I recall the perception in the '80s being that the Japanese were too good and would take over western economies.
gozur88 10y ago
Yes they did. It's true if you're behind the state of the art you copy whoever is out in front. Because there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Once you catch up, though, you start doing your own R&D because it makes sense to do so. That's what the Japanese did, that's what the Koreans did, and that's what the Chinese will do when they feel they've learned everything they can from manufacturers in other countries. It's going to take awhile, though. Chinese companies are having problems filling slots at the very top of the high tech skill ladder. A relative of mine works for a company that moved an optics manufacturing operation from China to Switzerland for cost reasons. The particular expertise they needed is rare in China, and people who have it can write their own ticket.
- mahranch 10y ago
  This is completely nonsense. Japan did not commit mass espionage and IP theft. Copying? Reverse-engineering? Sure, what country doesn't do that? That's the baseline. China is doing something completely different and on an entirely different level. The sheer volume and amount of IP theft and espionage they engage in is jaw-dropping. Whether they're using useful idiots/nationalists to steal the space shuttle plans, or running their hacker groups targeting corporate/governmental entities 24/7/365, it's moronic to equate that to Japan in the 70s/80s. Again, Japan wasn't known for their espionage efforts because they engaged in so little in comparison with everyone else. Hell, Russia was the bigger threat in the 80s thanks to the cold war. Japan was a complete non-factor. Japan had a growing economy that people were scared would supplant the U.S but that's where the similarities end. I'm befuddled how this nonsense is allowed to stand here on hackernews. It's reddit level garbage.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    >This is completely nonsense. Japan did not commit mass espionage and IP theft. "Espionage"? I looked back through my post and didn't see that word anywhere. >Copying? Reverse-engineering? Sure, what country doesn't do that? Yes... and that was the point. >I'm befuddled how this nonsense is allowed to stand here on hackernews. It's reddit level garbage. Yes... yes it is.
mahranch 10y ago
Not even close. You can't be serious. China and Japan are nothing alike and any comparisons would be entirely irrelevant. For starters, Japan is a capitalistic economy with a democratic government. That alone is enough complexity to make any china >> japan comparison invalid. But just for a cherry on top; Japan 30 years ago wasn't known for excessive espionage and IP theft. Sure, all countries do it but China has taken IP theft to the next level -- their entire economy is practically based on it. Tell me, when was the last time you bought a knock-off from Japan? 30 years ago, knock-offs didn't come from Japan, they came from Singapore, Indonesia, Cambodia, China, Laos and a few other poor SE asian countries. But not Japan.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Sorry as another commenter pointed out, 30 years ago was a bit too late, add another 10 years. 40 years ago Japanese TVs and cars were complete knockoffs. They did the same stuff China is doing today. "Partnerships" and then suddenly suspiciously similar designs. > China and Japan are nothing alike and any comparisons would be entirely irrelevant My point isn't that China will follow the same steps as Japan. My point is that you couldn't predict Japan's trajectory - first people said they made crap knockoffs and exploited American free trade deals to dump prices, then when they started innovating, everyone said they were going to take over the world, and then suddenly Japan stagnated. My only prediction is that China's future is just as uncertain, and any predictions are completely pulled out of anyone's ass.

jaimeog 10y ago

For most of human history China has been the most innovative country in the world. It has only been over the last several hundred years that this has not been the case. So claiming lack of cultural foundation for innovation is just wrong. "Gunpowder, the magnetic compass, and paper and printing, which Francis Bacon considered as the three most important inventions facilitating the West's transformation from the Dark Ages to the modern world, were invented in China" Joseph Needham points this out magnificently in his magnum opus, "Science and Civilization in China". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham#Science_and_Civilisation_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham#Science_and_Civ...

jordanb 10y ago
For most of history China didn't have the CCP. During the great leap forward Mao had all the sparrows killed. He then had to beg the soviet union to send him sparrows to replace the ones he killed. Then during the cultural revolution he killed all the intellectuals. They've never been replaced.
- jaimeog 10y ago
  > For most of history China didn't have the CCP. Firstly, Mao's China/CCP is completely different to the modern day China/CCP. Secondly, why is the CCP any worse than other periods in Chinese history? There have been many periods more oppressive and less democratic than the post-Mao CCP. > Mao had all the sparrows killed. I don't see how killing sparrows under Mao relates to the subject at hand. Yes, Mao's period was crazy, but Chinese history is full of such events. > he killed all the intellectuals This simply isn't true though. Yes, some intellectuals were killed and many more subject to physical and mental abuse, but to say "all" were killed is absurd.
  - mahranch 10y ago
    95% of our technological jumps and innovation throughout history have happened within the last 100 years. Coincidentally, those are the years China has been a non-factor. You say China has been the world's leading innovator throughout history, but what exactly did they accomplish within those 5000 years? Not much. With that said, the current PRC is stifling innovation, creativity and freedom. They have 1 billion people; China should be the most innovative country on the planet with all those chances for genius. Think of all the chances for Einstein, Hawking or bill gates... But what comes out of China? What product, computer program or device is China known for? Why aren't they inventing the latest iPhone, Windows OS, Mercedes Benz or Viagra? Why aren't they writing the next Game Of Thrones (can't with all the censorship going on) or bringing us the next high capacity lithium battery? Or Carbon Nanotubes? China isn't known for innovation in virtually any industry. They always rank near the bottom when it comes to innovation. And why is that? It's because the PRC stifles their society with all the controls and limits their creativity. Everything has to be government approved, and go through miles of bureaucracy (or straight up corruption/bribes). People forget, China ranks 100th on the corruption index released by transparency.org. There are 99 countries less corrupt than China. > Yes, some intellectuals were killed and many more subject to physical and mental abuse, but to say "all" were killed is absurd. Worse, he killed intellectualism itself. While he may not have killed every intellectual, their society isn't set up for individuality and creativity -- things which breed intellectualism.

kalleboo 10y ago

> Innovation requires creativity, critical thinking, outside the box thinking, etc etc etc... All things which China's PRC sees as a threat to their power so they squash it down Look up the latest thread on the American education system. You'll find a large proportion of the comments claim that the same thing has been going on in America ever since education was socialized. I live in Japan. By any outside measure, this country has zero critical or out of the box thinking, and has a complete groupthink culture. And yet it's been a major source of progress. I wouldn't count out human nature. Their biggest threat would be brain drain, but the US hates immigrants these days, which really plays in their favor.