7 ms·

Great! Finally somebody explained this to me, I thought it was just a marketing term related to different patents of similar ideas. I was puzzled by this as I

by bitL 10y ago

Great! Finally somebody explained this to me, I thought it was just a marketing term related to different patents of similar ideas. I was puzzled by this as I was stopped by a ranger coming out of Waipio Valley on Hawai'i, where there was a sign "4WD only" and my rental car had AWD. I thought they were the same, just different names, so I argued with the ranger that I do in fact have 4WD, which is in my case just called AWD and in other cases 4x4 as well. Well, he was still pretty upset but the "I am a European and we have different cars" finally disarmed him...

japhyr 10y ago
Did they make you turn around? Did your car do fine, or did it get a bit hairy?
- bitL 10y ago
  He actually stopped me after climbing up back to the viewing platform. The car was some US-made SUV with high clearance (don't remember if it was Ford or GM), just there was a sign AWD in the back (I specifically asked for a 4x4 rental vehicle). The road was fine, I think the issue might have been a few streams you had to cross at the bottom of the valley, but SUV had no problem with them. Ranger wanted to fine me but after arguing about 4WD, AWD, 4x4 he dropped it, still a bit angry.
blackguardx 10y ago
Generally a sign saying you need 4wd in the US really means you need a lot of ground clearance. Your car probably would have high-centered, that is stuck resting on the middle of the car with the tires in the air. The annoyed ranger was probably just tired of pulling stuck tourists out.
- ghaff 10y ago
  The Waipio Valley road, as I understand it, is mostly paved but extremely steep and narrow/twisty. So the 4x4 requirement is probably more about being able to control speed without burning up brakes and dealing with often wet conditions. However, in the general case throughout most of the US West, "4WD roads" do indeed tend to be as much about having high clearance as about having 4WD per se. It's also just a way of saying that, if you just have a random rental car and aren't used to driving very rough and often narrow/exposed roads, this is probably not a good idea.
  - dsr_ 10y ago
    And in particular, the Hawaiian rental car counters will tell you when you rent which roads your car is not allowed to go on.
    - rconti 10y ago
      I've always wondered why this matters. I've got car insurance, I've got additional rental coverage on my credit card, and there are plenty of other vendors from whom to rent cars if you want to blacklist me.
      - Drdrdrq 10y ago
        Well, they still have trouble with you if you get stuck or wreck the car, so it is easier for them to just list the "forbidden" roads. Not sure, but your insurance might be void if you crash the car where you were not supposed to drive.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        They probably don't want you taking a road you shouldn't, getting hurt, and then suing them because they didn't warn you about the dangers. Or they get tired of having all their cars smashed up. Insurance covers it, but it's still annoying.
      - bitL 10y ago
        Having violated this all the time I've been to Hawai'i I can understand why do they do that - for example, if you continue on the road to Hāna/Maui beyond, down to the southern side of Haleakalā the road becomes really dodgy, later turns into gravel and there is no water/gas for xy miles available, so for casual American tourists it might be pretty scary. Also, driving the north-western part of Maui is on a very narrow road over cliffs and fallen rocks (not as bad as parts of Tenerife though). I actually had an encounter on a pretty tall cliff where I was driving Subaru Forrester and some US female celebrity named Kim was driving the opposite way in even a larger car; we drove past each other with smiles in about 1mph to avoid collision and she must have been right on the edge with her car while I was almost scratching the right side rocks. Even Saddle Road between Maunas on the Big Island could be pretty demanding to casual tourists in fog and really slippery when descending down to Hilo in strong rain, which is like always (saw a crash once). There are also some scary roads on Kaua'i and O'ahu. In US it's so much easier to get a driving license than in EU, so your casual drivers are not used to fast and safe driving like in Germany, many off-road segments like in Spain or navigating chaotic situations as in 3rd world countries, and your society is generally on the safe side (even excessively so).
- tunap 10y ago
  Normally I would 2nd this, but it does not apply on this particular 4x4 road. It really sucks when opposing traffic appears as it's barely wide enough for 1 vehicle in most parts: The road gains 800 vertical feet (243.84 m) in 0.6 miles (0.9 km) at a 25% average grade, with steeper grades in sections. This is a paved public road but it is open only to 4 wheel drive vehicles. It is the steepest road of its length in the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waipio_Valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waipio_Valley
  - anexprogrammer 10y ago
    That doesn't seem that bad for normal traffic, conditions permitting - unless the steeper gradients are markedly so. I'm sure they have their reasons for 4wd only though - picking too many tourists out of the ditches or whatever. There's quite a few roads in the UK with 1:4 gradient, and one just down the road from me at 1:3 whose only restriction is no trucks and vans. Going downhill on the motorbike makes it feel like you're falling off! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardknott_Pass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardknott_Pass
    - Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
      There are roads in Spain with 1:4 gradient, too. 200 of the world's best cyclists rode up some of them in today's stage of the Vuelta a Espana. I'm no slouch cycling up hills but my jaw dropped seeing today's footage...
    - abraae 10y ago
      Here in New Zealand we lay claim to the steepest street in the world at 1:2.86 gradient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street. There's an annual charity event that involves the rolling of over 30,000 Jaffas (spherical confectionery-coated chocolate confectionery) down the hill.
      - markdown 10y ago
        How have I not heard of this event? Sounds similar to (and less dangerous than) cheese rolling.
- SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
  >Generally a sign saying you need 4wd in the US really means you need a lot of ground clearance The Subaru Outback (AWD) has 8.7" of ground clearance. The Ford Explorer ("Intelligent" 4WD) has a ground clearance of 7.8". If "Intelligent 4WD" means some kind of differential, then it really is just a marketing term at this point, though I learned about the distinction between 4WD and AWD when I bought a Subaru.
  - TylerE 10y ago
    It's about more than just ground clearance. Approach and departure angles matter too. The Outback has long overhangs, especiially the front.
- tdicola 10y ago
  Also 4WD cars generally have a super low gear for crawling at low speeds & high torque whereas AWD cars usually don't have a similar gear. Low gear is critical on steep grades, particularly descending them so you can go down safely and slowly without riding your brakes and overheating them.
- bitL 10y ago
  It was some US-made SUV (Ford or GM, can't recall which one) with fairly high clearance - I specifically booked it so that I can go everywhere (Waipio, Mauna Kea etc.). The road to valley was fine, it was also dry and the only possible issue could have been crossing a few streams at the bottom of the valley, but SUV had no problem there as well (clearance was sufficient). I experienced far worse roads on Tenerife while blindly following a route computed by then NOKIA maps that took me to super steep straight-up roads where my car ended up spinning all wheels unable to move up ;-)
wil421 10y ago
AWD is meant for adverse conditions on a road and will probably help on a unpaved road. Think rain, ice, snow. It will keep you on the road. 4WD is meant for off road conditions. You get more torque so you'll be able to get over rocks and out of ditches. The downside is you shouldn't use it over 10mph or so. I can't think of any recent car that is 4WD. It doesn't make sense since you'll probably never be "off road". Cars don't have proper ground clearance.
- waterphone 10y ago
  > The downside is you shouldn't use it over 10mph or so. That's not strictly true, and varies between implementations/transfer case designs. In Jeep Wranglers, for example, which have both high and low gearing options in 4WD, the owner's manual will indicate that you can drive at any speed (on loose surfaces such as sand or dirt) in 4HI and 0–25 MPH in 4LO.
  - wil421 10y ago
    You right that's why I said 10 or so. Try taking a turn at 25 in 4LO. I'm not sure of the use case for 25 in LO. My Grand Cherokee can operate the same way but I doubt I would go into LO at those speeds. It also will switch to 4HI when it detects wheel slip. A friend of mine had a old truck that would randomly switch to 4LO on the highway. It's pretty scary driving 60 and having 4LO switch on.
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      In dirt taking the turn at 25 is fine. The inside wheel will just spin a little.
      - refurb 10y ago
        Outside wheel wants to travel more than the drivetrain so it would slip, not spin correct? The inside wheel would spin if the outside doesn't slip.
to3m 10y ago
This distinction isn't really understood in the UK either, at least not as far as I've ever seen. If your car drives all 4 wheels, it has 4 wheel drive - no, seriously! - and you just have to know what its limitations might be. AWD vs 4WD seems to be one of those distinctions that Americans have, like drink vs beverage, that British English lacks completely.

by bitL 10y ago

japhyr 10y ago

Did they make you turn around? Did your car do fine, or did it get a bit hairy?

bitL 10y ago
He actually stopped me after climbing up back to the viewing platform. The car was some US-made SUV with high clearance (don't remember if it was Ford or GM), just there was a sign AWD in the back (I specifically asked for a 4x4 rental vehicle). The road was fine, I think the issue might have been a few streams you had to cross at the bottom of the valley, but SUV had no problem with them. Ranger wanted to fine me but after arguing about 4WD, AWD, 4x4 he dropped it, still a bit angry.

blackguardx 10y ago

Generally a sign saying you need 4wd in the US really means you need a lot of ground clearance. Your car probably would have high-centered, that is stuck resting on the middle of the car with the tires in the air. The annoyed ranger was probably just tired of pulling stuck tourists out.

ghaff 10y ago
The Waipio Valley road, as I understand it, is mostly paved but extremely steep and narrow/twisty. So the 4x4 requirement is probably more about being able to control speed without burning up brakes and dealing with often wet conditions. However, in the general case throughout most of the US West, "4WD roads" do indeed tend to be as much about having high clearance as about having 4WD per se. It's also just a way of saying that, if you just have a random rental car and aren't used to driving very rough and often narrow/exposed roads, this is probably not a good idea.
- dsr_ 10y ago
  And in particular, the Hawaiian rental car counters will tell you when you rent which roads your car is not allowed to go on.
  - rconti 10y ago
    I've always wondered why this matters. I've got car insurance, I've got additional rental coverage on my credit card, and there are plenty of other vendors from whom to rent cars if you want to blacklist me.
    - Drdrdrq 10y ago
      Well, they still have trouble with you if you get stuck or wreck the car, so it is easier for them to just list the "forbidden" roads. Not sure, but your insurance might be void if you crash the car where you were not supposed to drive.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      They probably don't want you taking a road you shouldn't, getting hurt, and then suing them because they didn't warn you about the dangers. Or they get tired of having all their cars smashed up. Insurance covers it, but it's still annoying.
    - bitL 10y ago
      Having violated this all the time I've been to Hawai'i I can understand why do they do that - for example, if you continue on the road to Hāna/Maui beyond, down to the southern side of Haleakalā the road becomes really dodgy, later turns into gravel and there is no water/gas for xy miles available, so for casual American tourists it might be pretty scary. Also, driving the north-western part of Maui is on a very narrow road over cliffs and fallen rocks (not as bad as parts of Tenerife though). I actually had an encounter on a pretty tall cliff where I was driving Subaru Forrester and some US female celebrity named Kim was driving the opposite way in even a larger car; we drove past each other with smiles in about 1mph to avoid collision and she must have been right on the edge with her car while I was almost scratching the right side rocks. Even Saddle Road between Maunas on the Big Island could be pretty demanding to casual tourists in fog and really slippery when descending down to Hilo in strong rain, which is like always (saw a crash once). There are also some scary roads on Kaua'i and O'ahu. In US it's so much easier to get a driving license than in EU, so your casual drivers are not used to fast and safe driving like in Germany, many off-road segments like in Spain or navigating chaotic situations as in 3rd world countries, and your society is generally on the safe side (even excessively so).
tunap 10y ago
Normally I would 2nd this, but it does not apply on this particular 4x4 road. It really sucks when opposing traffic appears as it's barely wide enough for 1 vehicle in most parts: The road gains 800 vertical feet (243.84 m) in 0.6 miles (0.9 km) at a 25% average grade, with steeper grades in sections. This is a paved public road but it is open only to 4 wheel drive vehicles. It is the steepest road of its length in the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waipio_Valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waipio_Valley
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  That doesn't seem that bad for normal traffic, conditions permitting - unless the steeper gradients are markedly so. I'm sure they have their reasons for 4wd only though - picking too many tourists out of the ditches or whatever. There's quite a few roads in the UK with 1:4 gradient, and one just down the road from me at 1:3 whose only restriction is no trucks and vans. Going downhill on the motorbike makes it feel like you're falling off! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardknott_Pass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardknott_Pass
  - Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
    There are roads in Spain with 1:4 gradient, too. 200 of the world's best cyclists rode up some of them in today's stage of the Vuelta a Espana. I'm no slouch cycling up hills but my jaw dropped seeing today's footage...
  - abraae 10y ago
    Here in New Zealand we lay claim to the steepest street in the world at 1:2.86 gradient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street. There's an annual charity event that involves the rolling of over 30,000 Jaffas (spherical confectionery-coated chocolate confectionery) down the hill.
    - markdown 10y ago
      How have I not heard of this event? Sounds similar to (and less dangerous than) cheese rolling.
SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
>Generally a sign saying you need 4wd in the US really means you need a lot of ground clearance The Subaru Outback (AWD) has 8.7" of ground clearance. The Ford Explorer ("Intelligent" 4WD) has a ground clearance of 7.8". If "Intelligent 4WD" means some kind of differential, then it really is just a marketing term at this point, though I learned about the distinction between 4WD and AWD when I bought a Subaru.
- TylerE 10y ago
  It's about more than just ground clearance. Approach and departure angles matter too. The Outback has long overhangs, especiially the front.
tdicola 10y ago
Also 4WD cars generally have a super low gear for crawling at low speeds & high torque whereas AWD cars usually don't have a similar gear. Low gear is critical on steep grades, particularly descending them so you can go down safely and slowly without riding your brakes and overheating them.
bitL 10y ago
It was some US-made SUV (Ford or GM, can't recall which one) with fairly high clearance - I specifically booked it so that I can go everywhere (Waipio, Mauna Kea etc.). The road to valley was fine, it was also dry and the only possible issue could have been crossing a few streams at the bottom of the valley, but SUV had no problem there as well (clearance was sufficient). I experienced far worse roads on Tenerife while blindly following a route computed by then NOKIA maps that took me to super steep straight-up roads where my car ended up spinning all wheels unable to move up ;-)

wil421 10y ago

AWD is meant for adverse conditions on a road and will probably help on a unpaved road. Think rain, ice, snow. It will keep you on the road. 4WD is meant for off road conditions. You get more torque so you'll be able to get over rocks and out of ditches. The downside is you shouldn't use it over 10mph or so. I can't think of any recent car that is 4WD. It doesn't make sense since you'll probably never be "off road". Cars don't have proper ground clearance.

waterphone 10y ago
> The downside is you shouldn't use it over 10mph or so. That's not strictly true, and varies between implementations/transfer case designs. In Jeep Wranglers, for example, which have both high and low gearing options in 4WD, the owner's manual will indicate that you can drive at any speed (on loose surfaces such as sand or dirt) in 4HI and 0–25 MPH in 4LO.
- wil421 10y ago
  You right that's why I said 10 or so. Try taking a turn at 25 in 4LO. I'm not sure of the use case for 25 in LO. My Grand Cherokee can operate the same way but I doubt I would go into LO at those speeds. It also will switch to 4HI when it detects wheel slip. A friend of mine had a old truck that would randomly switch to 4LO on the highway. It's pretty scary driving 60 and having 4LO switch on.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    In dirt taking the turn at 25 is fine. The inside wheel will just spin a little.
    - refurb 10y ago
      Outside wheel wants to travel more than the drivetrain so it would slip, not spin correct? The inside wheel would spin if the outside doesn't slip.

to3m 10y ago

This distinction isn't really understood in the UK either, at least not as far as I've ever seen. If your car drives all 4 wheels, it has 4 wheel drive - no, seriously! - and you just have to know what its limitations might be. AWD vs 4WD seems to be one of those distinctions that Americans have, like drink vs beverage, that British English lacks completely.