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Twitch could be a $20B company within Amazon
- dexwiz 10y agoAmazon bought two things with Twitch: 1) A social community 2) a monetization model. The video service itself is secondary. The past several years has shown the social communities grow organically. But its hard to make users adopt one. If you build it, they probably won't come. It's easier for a big company to buy one up than start one from scratch. (Think Instagram versus Google Plus). Second, Twitch is one of the few monetization models on the internet that is not pure ad based. Twitch does have ads, but streamers see more money through direct donations and monthly subscriptions. Also I am willing to bet the rate of ad blockers on Twitch is higher than the average site. Twitch has shied away from dark patterns that lock out adblocking users. I don't see any big modals or disabled video if I run an adblocker on Twitch. This is no doubt on purpose. So Twitch has locked on an monetization model of direct payment for digital content, which is rare on the internet. And best of all, it's completely optional. A video streaming service alone is nothing revolutionary. There are many Twitch clones that haven't reach near the same popularity. Its the community, and how its funded.
- andreasklinger 10y agoTwo additional aspects: 1) Twitch can leverage the core support network that amazon can build Starting from aws - to prime video subscriptions 2) amazon will go strong into tv top as soon as apple and google take it more serious. at that point the got one of the bigger kinds of content under control - similar w/ google and youtube
- duaneb 10y agoWhat makes you think appletv will ever support Amazon video? The iOS app definitely needs chrome cast support.
- dmoy 10y agoGiven that, e.g. amazon stopped selling Chromecast, I don't have high hopes for interoperability here.
- m_mueller 10y agoRecent move towards subscriptions and Apple's sign to give up on some revenue. What is it now, 15% after the first year? Could't that be viable for something like Prime video?
- andreasklinger 10y agoi didnt mean that i think for now every of the big players will create their own apps/boxes - i imagine "prime TV" at some point the fragmentation will annoy customers so much that they will find ways to combine - but that's in 5-10 years
- abraae 10y agoMight never happen. Chromecast is so cheap that its probably putting downwards price pressure on the devices themselves. And I don't personally have any issue flicking between all of my various "set top" boxes: chromecast, WD Live, Apple TV, old school dvd player, Tivo. After all, what issues does this fragmentation cause, apart from a bit of a mess of HDMI cables, and a shortage of HDMI ports on the TV?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ben_jones 10y agoThey bought, in one form or another, the very phenomenon of video game addiction. I'd love to see their user activity numbers because I really believe a large portion of the twitch demographic spends Facebook-esque # of hours on the site per day. And here's the thing, people love Twitch. Their seen as a champion of gamers that allowed streamers to stream, giving monetization strategies as a gift.
- cpeterso 10y ago> The active engagement of Twitch viewers can often help boost sales for games that prove popular among live streams. Can users purchase games (from Amazon) directly through Twitch? Amazon could offer streamers a referral cut, too.
- throwanem 10y agoThat seems like posing a real challenge for Amazon, simply because the entire PC game market belongs within reasonable margin of error to Valve, via Steam. I don't know as much on the console side, but the impression I have is that that's moving more toward digital delivery as well, via the various console manufacturers' storefronts. Not sure how Amazon would be able to find a meaningful entry into that particular market.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- bloaf 10y agoI feel like selling the games directly on a twitch stream page would be a little too boorish. It would make every streamer immediately look like a paid advertiser. I think a smarter strategy would be to let the streamers advertise peripheral items (wanna order the beer I'm drinking?) and to encourage the viewers to buy things for the streamers to feature in their show (especially the crafty streams.)
- iotku 10y ago>Twitch has shied away from dark patterns that lock out adblocking users. I don't see any big modals or disabled video if I run an adblocker on Twitch. This is no doubt on purpose. I vividly remember this not being the case, whereas (at least in partnered streams) if twitch detected an ad-blocker it would stop the stream and then fill your screen with recommendations to subscribe to the streamer. What ended up happening if I recall correctly was the adblockers would just block the anti-adblock screens so they were rendered ineffective. I'm pretty sure there was other efforts, but I found this on their blog [1] [1] https://blog.twitch.tv/experiment-with-advertising-on-partner-channels-6eb6ecee7ef7#.64149468d https://blog.twitch.tv/experiment-with-advertising-on-partne...
- calgoo 10y agoI watch an average of 8 hours of twitch daily while working from home. I use adblockers without issues on their site. The only thing that I had to mess with was uMatrix, but that happens everywhere, especially with so many CDNs etc loading content.
- ChuckMcM 10y agoIf this thesis holds true: > The past several years has shown the social > communities grow organically. But its hard to > make users adopt one. If you build it, they probably > won't come. It's easier for a big company to buy one > up than start one from scratch. (Think Instagram > versus Google Plus). Then the best use of someone's time might be to start as many social networks as possible on the possibility that one of them develops enough community to go "big." At which point you sell it to the highest bidder. Sort of "community farming" on a meta level.
- NhanH 10y agoIf all else equal, I'd imagine that's true. However, starting multiple things while keeping high product quality might not be that simple, despite popular belief that social networks are "easy".
- paavokoya 10y agoReminds me of irl communities where artists and entrepreneurs start local, homegrown businesses (think portland hipster) and then giant corps come in, tear down the old housing, throw up 5-story Ikea condos on every block (along with the white-bread cafes and clog shops) and ride the "trendy neighborhood" wave for a decade or two until the money leaves for another cool neighborhood
- forrestthewoods 10y agoMy rule of thumb is that if you can get 100M monthly users you can sell your company for $1B. It doesn't matter what your product or platform or service is. It doesn't even matter if you have any revenue. If you can get a hundred million monthly users then you can sell for 1 billion dollars. At least that's what I've observed over the past few years. Twitch was bought $1B with a mere 50M users. But highly engaged users with successful monetization. So it fits my model. WhatsApp was bought for almost $20B under the assumption they could hit 1B users. A 2x premium for being so large. So roughly $5 to $20 per user. That seems pretty reasonable.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
- Noseshine 10y agoFunny enough, I'm watching a Starcraft II channel on Twitch just now, while reading HN. I don't play any games, not even the smallest, but I watch - although only caster streams, not player streams. Tastosis FTW :) I have a cable subscription as part of my apartment package - but I don't use it. I don't even have a TV. Internet and streaming only. I find that if I had TV I'd be much more passive and watch too much, now I watch SC2 but not as much as if I had TV. I spend a lot more time with edX and Coursera and watch lecture videos instead. If I had a TV it would be much harder to turn it off than a game stream. I like the smaller communities, watching a TV production I am much more of a passive anonymous consumer than even a (very big) 50,000 viewer stream on Twitch, and even though Twitch chat is notorious, at least it exists. And a lot of streamers and casters react to what is going on in chat at least sometimes, in traditional media I am much farther removed from the makers. Of various streaming services I tried watching Twitch in the end provided the consistently best experience, these days up to 1080p60. That alone is not sufficient to know how much data is flowing though, the data rate can be very different even for streams with the same resolution and frame rate, so with the same advertised resolution one channel can be much more crisp than another one, but some people may experience occasional buffering issues. I just checked, currently there are about 650,000 viewers total on Twitch, rough estimate just to get an idea of order of magnitude. More stats: https://www.quantcast.com/twitch.tv#trafficCard https://www.quantcast.com/twitch.tv#trafficCard You can change the period on the right, the earliest to set "From" to is 23 March, 2012, to get a view of how Twitch's viewers develop(ed) over time. When I look at the last 365 days it looks pretty flat. I'm not sure about the data though, for some reason the "Rest of the world" (other than USA) is pretty much gone from one day to the next beginning of 2016. Does anyone have an explanation? I doubt that the "rest of the world" stopped watching Twitch overnight. Looking at https://stats.twitchapps.com/ https://stats.twitchapps.com/ it's the same result though - no real growth any more for at least the last 12 months. Unless that's based on the same data, I don't know.
- cpeterso 10y agoI don't play computer games either, or watch Twitch streams, but I have watched quite a few "Let's Play" walkthroughs on YouTube (mostly old adventure games). You get to experience the game's story and puzzles without the frustration. ;)
- Analemma_ 10y agoWith all that growth opportunity, you'd think they could invest a little more in the engineering side. I mean, I like Twitch, but their platform is still a mess. Chat delay can be a minute or more, and the VOD situation still sucks (60 days? Seriously?). I mean, they're owned by the people who run AWS for crying out loud. They should be able to knock this out of the park. I thought YouTube Gaming was going to muscle in to this space quickly just by virtue of technical superiority. It looks like that hasn't happened yet, but Twitch can't afford to get complacent.
- larrik 10y agoAt least VODs work on mobile now, that was a huge bummer. Also, Highlights last forever
- concerned_user 10y agoThey've been around for almost 5 years and can't make a decent voting system it always ends up in a chat spam, why do this through chat if you can make some button for user to press, optionally with a word to type or captcha but they chose the chat spam.
- 15charlimit 10y agoYoutube's interface (both broadcasting and viewing) is terrible compared to Twitch for the kind of programming people watch on it, and the "community" on Youtube is infinitely worse in every way possible to boot.
- esturk 10y agoThat's not entirely true. On Youtube, you can instantly rewind the video like you do on a video where as on Twitch, you have to go to the videos section, wait for that section to be uploaded before rewinding. There's also 60 fps on Youtube which beats Twitch's 30 fps.
- phit_ 10y agotwitch can do 60+ fps, lots of people on twitch stream 720p60fps, it's arguably the best balance between quality and bandwidth cost the only limiting factor is the bitrate limit of 3500 https://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/1253460-broadcast-requirements https://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/1253460-broa...
- rjvir 10y agoIt's worth noting that in the 2 year period since Amazon bought Twitch, their search interest via Google has been stagnant. https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=2014-08-25%202016-08-26&q=twitch https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=2014-08-25%202016...
- cloudjacker 10y agoAlso worth noting that all the gaming console users have Twitch integrated and won't be going to Google to find it
- rjvir 10y agoThe graph is relative. The idea is that Twitch viewership is correlated with Google searches - not that Google search is responsible for all Twitch traffic.
- cloudjacker 10y agoand I'm telling you why the correlation could decouple making your data point meaningless
- sergiotapia 10y agotwitch is twitch. Who really searches for Twitch, instead of just visiting the site and searching for content there?
- rjvir 10y agoThat proportion is not too relevant for this graph. The graph is relative. Even if a only a small percentage of Twitch users use Google search to access Twitch, the graph would be somewhat indicative of it's growth.
- wongarsu 10y agoThe question is: does the probability that a given user accesses Twitch over Google search go down as the user uses Twitch more often? Does it so more than on other sites, maybe because regular twitch use promotes other ways of engagement (phone app, console app, email notifications, twitter links from the streamers, etc)? If 90% of new Twitch users reach Twitch over Google, 30% of one week old users and only 5% of one month old users, then a flat graph could actually indicate growth.
- hoodoof 10y agoI wonder how the founders feel.
- justin 10y agoWell we still got $970 million dollars, so mostly alright :)
- hoodoof 10y agoWhat did your mom say when you told her that?
- wesleytodd 10y agoLOL, this is gold :)
- dfrey 10y agoMore and more people are dumping cable TV. The main reasons that I hear for people keeping it are sports and news. If live streaming sites like twitch can sign deals with sports leagues, then I think we will see even more people cancelling their cable. The nice thing about streaming is that you aren't channel limited, so there is no reason why you can't follow some obscure minor league team on the other side of the planet.
- paulcole 10y agoNFL rights alone will (my guess) cost around 5 billion USD per year when the next contracts are negotiated, maybe more. There is no way an online service puts up that kind of money considering something like 1/3 of Americans simply don't have high-speed internet access.
- jedberg 10y agoThe last time the rights were negotiated in 2013, they were $40B, with ESPN paying about double what NBC, CBS and Fox payed. There is one company with the kind of money that might make sense -- Apple. It would be a heck of a way for them to jumpstart a streaming service and make it only available on AppleTV. Probably the biggest holdup would be the NFL itself, who makes sure those broadcast contracts reach the biggest number of people to keep their brand popular.
- paulcole 10y agoApple really is the only option that makes sense, but mostly because it just doesn't make sense for anyone else. Would love to see it happen. I pay $50/month during the season for Sunday Ticket and the service is just OK. Would love to see a better take on it.
- walden42 10y agoLive news broadcasts from individuals passionate about researching live events would be great, too. Anything like that that could replace MSM. From people compiling the current latest news from places like Twitter, to people actually out on the streets during events.
- AndrewWarner 10y agoMaybe the most useful interview I've ever done on Mixergy is with Twitch's cofounder about how he founded the company. Do yourself a favor and get the transcript. He's super-methodical. https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Bcu32XwL4S0BHB2fybaqRRQF8I2KUpnFbQLrCM7gZk/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Bcu32XwL4S0BHB2fybaqRRQ...
- caminante 10y ago26 page transcript...how long did this take?
- AndrewWarner 10y agoOne hour. Think of it as a mini-book. I shared the Google Doc so you can save it to your Gogle Drive and read it when you have time for something longer than a blog post.
- AndrewWarner 10y agoBy the way, for anyone who's curious. The original link has 4 upvotes and the Doc has 52 people reading it now.
- dzhiurgis 10y agoIs there an audiobook version? ;-)
- et-al 10y agoI think the other commenter meant "how long to transcribe it?", if you did it manually. (Thanks for the transcription!)
- shostack 10y agoThat's awesome. You should consider posting it as a .epub or .mobi file!
- pavs 10y ago
- wehadfun 10y agoWatching people play video games is something I still don't understand.
- thaumasiotes 10y agoSimple concept. You get the benefit of playing through the game without the drawbacks.
- nommm-nommm 10y agoWhat's the drawbacks?
- krapp 10y agoPaying for the game, and in some cases the console it runs on.
- mastax 10y agoMy perspective: - Purchasing - Downloading - Installing - Patching - Commitment - Mechanical Skill It allows you to experience the story of a game or the experience of high skill play with little up-front cost or long-term commitment.
- thaumasiotes 10y agoOne you've left out: hours wasted farming experience or searching around for whatever you're supposed to do next tend to just be cut out of let's plays. (You still need to suffer through those if you're watching a stream; the advantage of a stream over an edited video seems to be mainly that it provides a social group to hang out with.)
- derefr 10y agoDo you understand watching people play sports?
- chippy 10y ago
- wehadfun 10y agoWatching people play video games is something I still don't understand.
- alexandre_m 10y agoThis whole industry of game streaming is operating in a gray zone. It's a matter of time before we see some big lawsuits against the streamer and streaming platforms which make a lot of money by publishing the whole content, without any royalties to game developers /publishers. For certain games. it doesn't spoil or ruin the fun factor for viewers, but some others it just removed the incentives to buy a copy of the game in the first place.
- Buttons840 10y agoThe most popular games on Twitch are not story driven though.
- kcbanner 10y agoThat would make sense, because for a game to be popular it would have to have a consistent viewership; something you wouldn't have with a single playthrough story based game. I think that story based games are very popular in the short term when they come out, but then die off (because most streamers have played them before their audiences). I think OP's point is valid.
- alexandre_m 10y agoMy comment wasn't only targeting Twitch, nor only live streaming. Just take for example all those YouTube channels where you can access a replay of a whole game on demand. I just did a couple of weeks ago with the latest Resident Evil HD remaster because I was fond of this game I played back in 1996. I thought about buying a copy. I wanted to revisit it. Well not anymore. I just skipped through the important cinematics and storyline for some hours, up to the game ending.
- kazagistar 10y agoFor me its the opposite. I watch the start of a playthough and if I find it interesting, then I get the game, when otherwise I would not have given it a try. I think that game companies are more thrilled about free advertising to people like me then they are worried about people like you... at least for now. If that balance shifts, things might get ugly.
- hoodoof 10y agoGame developers don't have any option except to restrict public display of their games in some way. There are now plenty of people who enjoy watching but not playing games. Game developers need revenue for this firstly because they deserve it, having made the entertainment, but secondly because former players are now just watchers and not paying money, reducing revenue. My guess is that games developers will permit public display of a restricted part of the game, like level one only, and will require royalties for display of other sections of the game
- hoodoof 10y agoI think it's funny that people downvote because they don't like what they read even if its true. Put yourself in the shoes of the game developer who puts everything on the line to develop a game that thousands of people watch but the developer gets no revenue for.
- azeirah 10y agoThousands of people watch -> word of mouth marketing -> people who wouldn't have heard of the game now know it, and might buy it No people watch -> nothing happens -> nothing happens
- bobcostas55 10y ago>Put yourself in the shoes of the game developer who puts everything on the line to develop a game that thousands of people watch but the developer gets no revenue for. Has this _ever_ happened?
- nightski 10y agoYea pretty sure if you get the point where you have thousands or tens of thousands of viewers on Twitch, your game is already very successful.
- douche 10y agoThousands of people hear about the game and that it is pretty okay -> Steam sale/Humble Bundle -> People think they are getting a deal -> PROFIT!
- strictnein 10y agoIf you're interested in the backstory of Justin.tv (which became Twitch), StartUp has a two part podcast on it: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/almost-famous-season-3-episode-1/ https://gimletmedia.com/episode/almost-famous-season-3-episo... https://gimletmedia.com/episode/season-3-episode-2/ https://gimletmedia.com/episode/season-3-episode-2/
- thomasthomas 10y agoglad someone added this. the pod is pretty amazing to see to the persistence and struggle justin and co. went through. last five minutes of the second episode were best part
- bballer 10y agoJust wanted to say thanks for these links. One because the story was/is awesome, and two, I had no idea about StartUp Podcast. It was funny when one of the co-founders said something along the lines of "who the hell wants to watch other people play video games on the internet," little did he know... I beat my head on my desk some days thinking "why didn't I think of that!!!!" and then I beat my head on my desk again thinking, "what other ridiculous sounding simple idea is lurking out there yet uncovered." If anyone stumbles across that very thing and needs help brining it to fruition, pm me :D
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- thecolorblue 10y agoWhat is a good example of a twitch stream to show how great live streaming can be?
- ggregoire 10y agoHere a list of the current top streams, per number of spectators: https://www.twitch.tv/directory/all https://www.twitch.tv/directory/all This weekend you can watch the LCS finals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends_Championship_Series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends_Championship...). Winners will represent their region (North America and Europe) for the World in October (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends_World_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends_World_Champi...).
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- kmnc 10y agoLook for semi popular games with viewers in the 200-1000 viewers and you will find a lot of really good, entertaining people who interact with chat. Big streams are entertaining but fail to capture the magic and often become horrible people. In my opinion the glory days of twitch are already behind them because they have failed to incentivise small time streamers. Most pro esports players don't stream because the income is not worth the bullshit of the community.
- ycombinatorMan 10y agoI feel sorry for people who can't handle the twitch community. In fact most of the detractors are generally shitty people.
- detaro 10y agoGreat is fairly subjective. Some categories with examples to cover some range, clicking around in each of these should give some impression: Big events/tournaments are basically like TV coverage of sports, with similar production values. Examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wJkl-6w09s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wJkl-6w09s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSqxzRtwi80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSqxzRtwi80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIygo3bIVmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIygo3bIVmo ----------------- YouTubers that also do streams, personality is important. I personally find this kind often to slow and with to many interruptions, so I don't really watch them. But they are popular and seem to be a great way to make money (compared with just YouTube). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjCGn1wo4kQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjCGn1wo4kQ (mostly strategy/simulation-type games, relatively small following -> interacts with subscribers a lot, names ingame-things after them ("hi $name! weren't you a dwarf that lost both arms once?"). EDIT: he is also streaming Ludum Dare this weekend, for another type of streaming content: https://www.twitch.tv/quill18 https://www.twitch.tv/quill18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegnAQD1hRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegnAQD1hRs (Minecraft player, relatively random pick) ------------------ There is also the category of competitive players streaming just playing (and since competitive play takes their attention, there is not much interaction with the audience. But you get to see how somebody really good at a game plays like and hear them explain their logic). Don't have good examples available though, since I don't play competitive games.
- Happpy 10y agoSteam(Valve) could be next on Amazon's list. Desktop application: Add - amazon shopping - streaming - viewing - social ...
- shmerl 10y agoWhy should they sell it to Amazon? Valve is very profitable as it is.
- douche 10y agoSeriously, they effectively own a money-printing machine. They ARE PC gaming.
- mastax 10y agoAlso: Valve is privately owned and the owner (it may just be Gabe) is not likely to sell. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/177395/Newell_Valve_would_disintegrate_before_selling_out.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/177395/Newell_Valve_would...
- syoc 10y agoValve might just be the company I see as the least likely to allow buyout.
- Keyframe 10y agoSteam could launch their own streaming video platform. I don't see any reason why they haven't done so already. They're in a perfect spot for it.
- mandeepj 10y agoand amazon could be a $3T (that is trillion) company. Nothing wrong with these speculations. At least they are positive and much better than recession or bubble is coming like BS rumors. source - http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chamath-palihapitiya-says-amazon-could-be-a--3-trillion-company-174748494.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chamath-palihapitiya-says-amaz...
- Multiplayer 10y agoMy 9 year old son would rather watch people play minecraft than actually play it. I'm not talking about competitive or pro play (if that even exists for minecraft) - just people goofing around. Potentially just an enormous new business for games. I still can't get my head around it. It's like his version of cartoons.
- lonelycoder2 10y agoIt's not really a new phenomena. Look back in the 70s or 80s with arcades, people would stand around watching their friends play. Then later young people went to each others houses and played video games (mostly multiplayer but some single player and watched). It's entertaining watching how other people do things. They might play differently than how you would play it.
- duderific 10y agoHa, I remember those days all too well...there would be a big crowd around the best players of PacMan, Defender or what have you...you would have to work your way in there, or be tall enough to look over peoples shoulders, to see what was going on.
- ycombinatorMan 10y ago>It's entertaining watching how other people do things. They might play differently than how you would play it. I don't really think this is the appeal
- pkamb 10y agoI wish Twitch had an Apple TV app. I've found that the Apple TV is the only way I "get" YouTube in the same way the kids these days do. No way am I watching videos on my laptop/desktop/iPhone/iPad while multitasking, but video on the big TV is great when sitting on the couch or on in the background. Twitch on the Apple TV would be similar, but it appears Amazon (as with Prime Video) is refusing to release an app.
- tinbad 10y agoWelcome to todays walled entertainment gardens. Amazon thinks their Fire TV or Stick is superior to Apple TV (or any other product) and why would you want an Apple TV anyway? (sarcasm)
- adrr 10y agoAmazon doesn't want to pay a tax to apple when they sell videos/service through an AppleTV. Amazon Prime app is available on other media players. Apple on the other hand doesn't support their video ITunes content on non apple devices.
- partiallypro 10y agoI honestly think the game streaming model is sustainable, but it's also a bit of a fad that will die down in 5-7 years. I also think Sony and Microsoft will begin to make their own portals of game streaming that will challenge Twitch. Microsoft just made an acquisition that points to this. That's not to say they want to kill Twitch, just that they see its value. In doing so though, it will squeeze the margin on advertising revenues, couple that with just demographic shifts in the social fad and I believe it will not grow near as fast as people forecast As for valuation, I don't know the numbers, it could be worth billions; but $20 Billion seems like a stretch when CBS is only worth $22 Billion and Viacom $18 Billion at present. I wonder what their actual financials look like, I feel like there is more monetary incentives and opportunities for the content creators than for Twitch itself.
- stkyle 10y agoThese valuations are absurd.
- greendestiny_re 10y agoTwitch is a very interesting linguistical experiment, as the chat emotes can be used to convey very subtle nuances in meaning, unlike anything we've seen before, off- or online. For example, Kappa is a smug face denoting sarcasm, superiority, condescension and arrogance, but can imply any of those meanings subverted. Combining the emotes together, along with standard ASCII characters, can produce very complex and astoundingly compact stories[0]. [0] http://i.imgur.com/sVQr7wY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/sVQr7wY.jpg
- ertigen 10y agoNot real