4 ms·

When I complain about homophobia, I always use the argument that people of the same gender having sex is something that adults do in their free will and doesn't

by slazaro 10y ago

When I complain about homophobia, I always use the argument that people of the same gender having sex is something that adults do in their free will and doesn't affect other people's lives and therefore shouldn't have any laws against it. I don't like the concept of women covering themselves like that because of religion, but I have a hard time thinking it should be banned because of the argument I just mentioned. But I still feel this cognitive dissonance inside... It's weird.

mc32 10y ago
Me too. I think people should be allowed to do ridiculous things like this if they want to. I think the main issue is that there are two aspects to the burkini, one a cultural one and a religious one. The cultural one is where one doesn't want to invalidate others' cultures so long as nothing bad is being done (say genital mutilation), and there is the religious one which gives cover to another aspect if the cultural aspect and that is making people feel weird about their bodies and having to be 'modest' not for oneself but for family etc. But please don't go swimming in these (or any other fully clothed manner) it adds to your bulk, in the event you encounter swimming difficulties.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  Wetsuits add bulk too but those don't present swimming difficulties (in fact wetsuits are really bad to wear if you're not actually swimming in them; they can get too warm, since they're made of rubber). Burkinis look absolutely dangerous though because they're too loose-fitting; they look like a great way to get tangled up and drowned. What these women need is a tight-fitting one-piece unitard made of swimsuit material. But they probably won't go for that because it's not "modest" to not hide their bodies behind loose-fitting fabric.
noobermin 10y ago
I have friends who wear hijab, and for them, it makes them feel modest. I think the best way I can think about it is if I decide to go out into the street naked. Sure, my social conditioning has made me feel, well, naked when I am nude and uncomfortable with the idea of presenting myself nude in public. In fact, even when I am semi-nude (like I feel my shirt is too short and exposing my lower back), I am self-concious. You can be so lib that you argue my discomfort with my nude self is a product of "repressive" western culture conditioned by Christian values, or you could just accept that that is my choice and what I feel comfortable with, as long as my choice doesn't affect you. I think that is fair.
- belorn 10y ago
  Interesting that you say nude, since its is common illegal to be nude on beaches unless explicitly permitted. If everyone has a right to wear as much clothing they want so long that choice don't harm anyone else, shouldn't the opposite clothing choice also be permitted?
  - noobermin 10y ago
    You're getting it...not all laws (public indecency) are based in secular logic, there is a piece of culture in there too. I'd argue secular logic is a culture too--my personal favorite of them, tbh. I am not against nude beaches personally.
    - belorn 10y ago
      I am actually a bit against nude beaches, as I rather have all beaches have clothing as the decision of the wearer and not culture. Nude beaches has always sound a bit like reservations for foreign culture, barely tolerated and put out of sight. I would also like to see nudist and Muslims go hand in hand in a common demonstration against clothing laws. A common demand that society should be more tolerant to other peoples views and culture, and sign of faith that they too can do so. In this fantasy, it would mean a end to phobias against other cultures.
benjohnson 10y ago
I'm also of two minds - I like diversity and different cultures. But I also would respect the French decision to protect their own indigenous culture.
- lucd 10y ago
  It was a local initiative of two or three populist mayors. Fortunately the conseil d'état is here to protect what is left of "Le pays des droits de l'homme", and its decision should be regarded as the French decision. Regarding our indigenous culture.. Go after some women on the beach, because their body is too much covered.. while our indigenous culture is silently eroded by the very invasive american one. Seems misguided at least..
PeterWhittaker 10y ago
I look at it this way: I have to assume that, absent evidence to the contrary, all adults are mentally healthy and psychologically competent. If I make any other assumption, then I am on the slippery slope to denying them the right to vote, to manage their own affairs, etc. The trick, of course, is being reasonable, just, and as objective as possible as to what constitutes "evidence to the contrary". Actually actively harming another? Seems clear, and courts can decide how best to remove that person from a position from which they can inflict harm. Harming themselves? Much tougher. We've longed struggled with determining the correct moment to intervene and the correct intervention for drugs, excessive drinking, self-cutting, etc. Behaviour inconsistent with social norms? Much, much tougher. Perhaps we need to live and let live a little more? Frankly, I do see the hijab, etc., as symbols of oppression. But it ain't for me to judge someone for what they are wearing or doing, if they aren't harming others, and sometimes not even when they are harming themselves. I may dislike what other competent adults are doing, but my dislike, my distaste, my offense, are worth precisely and totally nothing when questions of regulation arise.

by slazaro 10y ago

mc32 10y ago

Me too. I think people should be allowed to do ridiculous things like this if they want to. I think the main issue is that there are two aspects to the burkini, one a cultural one and a religious one. The cultural one is where one doesn't want to invalidate others' cultures so long as nothing bad is being done (say genital mutilation), and there is the religious one which gives cover to another aspect if the cultural aspect and that is making people feel weird about their bodies and having to be 'modest' not for oneself but for family etc. But please don't go swimming in these (or any other fully clothed manner) it adds to your bulk, in the event you encounter swimming difficulties.

Grishnakh 10y ago
Wetsuits add bulk too but those don't present swimming difficulties (in fact wetsuits are really bad to wear if you're not actually swimming in them; they can get too warm, since they're made of rubber). Burkinis look absolutely dangerous though because they're too loose-fitting; they look like a great way to get tangled up and drowned. What these women need is a tight-fitting one-piece unitard made of swimsuit material. But they probably won't go for that because it's not "modest" to not hide their bodies behind loose-fitting fabric.

noobermin 10y ago

I have friends who wear hijab, and for them, it makes them feel modest. I think the best way I can think about it is if I decide to go out into the street naked. Sure, my social conditioning has made me feel, well, naked when I am nude and uncomfortable with the idea of presenting myself nude in public. In fact, even when I am semi-nude (like I feel my shirt is too short and exposing my lower back), I am self-concious. You can be so lib that you argue my discomfort with my nude self is a product of "repressive" western culture conditioned by Christian values, or you could just accept that that is my choice and what I feel comfortable with, as long as my choice doesn't affect you. I think that is fair.

belorn 10y ago
Interesting that you say nude, since its is common illegal to be nude on beaches unless explicitly permitted. If everyone has a right to wear as much clothing they want so long that choice don't harm anyone else, shouldn't the opposite clothing choice also be permitted?
- noobermin 10y ago
  You're getting it...not all laws (public indecency) are based in secular logic, there is a piece of culture in there too. I'd argue secular logic is a culture too--my personal favorite of them, tbh. I am not against nude beaches personally.
  - belorn 10y ago
    I am actually a bit against nude beaches, as I rather have all beaches have clothing as the decision of the wearer and not culture. Nude beaches has always sound a bit like reservations for foreign culture, barely tolerated and put out of sight. I would also like to see nudist and Muslims go hand in hand in a common demonstration against clothing laws. A common demand that society should be more tolerant to other peoples views and culture, and sign of faith that they too can do so. In this fantasy, it would mean a end to phobias against other cultures.

benjohnson 10y ago

I'm also of two minds - I like diversity and different cultures. But I also would respect the French decision to protect their own indigenous culture.

lucd 10y ago
It was a local initiative of two or three populist mayors. Fortunately the conseil d'état is here to protect what is left of "Le pays des droits de l'homme", and its decision should be regarded as the French decision. Regarding our indigenous culture.. Go after some women on the beach, because their body is too much covered.. while our indigenous culture is silently eroded by the very invasive american one. Seems misguided at least..

PeterWhittaker 10y ago

I look at it this way: I have to assume that, absent evidence to the contrary, all adults are mentally healthy and psychologically competent. If I make any other assumption, then I am on the slippery slope to denying them the right to vote, to manage their own affairs, etc. The trick, of course, is being reasonable, just, and as objective as possible as to what constitutes "evidence to the contrary". Actually actively harming another? Seems clear, and courts can decide how best to remove that person from a position from which they can inflict harm. Harming themselves? Much tougher. We've longed struggled with determining the correct moment to intervene and the correct intervention for drugs, excessive drinking, self-cutting, etc. Behaviour inconsistent with social norms? Much, much tougher. Perhaps we need to live and let live a little more? Frankly, I do see the hijab, etc., as symbols of oppression. But it ain't for me to judge someone for what they are wearing or doing, if they aren't harming others, and sometimes not even when they are harming themselves. I may dislike what other competent adults are doing, but my dislike, my distaste, my offense, are worth precisely and totally nothing when questions of regulation arise.