5 ms·

> Go to university and you should expect "free and open exchange of ideas", go to a trade school if all you want is "credentials for employment". Sure, theore

> Go to university and you should expect "free and open exchange of ideas", go to a trade school if all you want is "credentials for employment". Sure, theoretically. In the real world, not so much. Want to be a lawyer high up in a corporate firm? Get a research position doing the kind of work PhD's do? Good luck going down that path by going to a trade school. Heck, look at the example of Susan Finley. After 46 successful years at NASA, they demoted her - because she didn't have a bachelor's degree. If universities want to be mainly about debate and a free exchange ideas, they should give up their monopolies on the things most people are going there for (monopolies they really shouldn't have in the first place).

wyldfire 10y ago
> Want to be a lawyer ... Perfect example! Law is one career where you can learn everything you need to know by reading books (ok, maybe all of them are that way..). Yet legislators (many lawyers themselves) in several states have introduced new laws to limit licensure only to those who have degrees. This would've excluded notables like Lincoln, Jefferson, Darrow, Marshall.
- tnecniv 10y ago
  What's the justification for doing this?
  - cuckcuckspruce 10y ago
    The Bar Association is a modern guild. They don't want competition.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Jefferson, at least, graduated from the College of William & Mary.
  - wyldfire 10y ago
    True, he studied law there but was never offered a "degree". "I see on your C.V. you've written 'The United States Declaration of Independence' -- nice job! Oh but no JD? Tsk. Next!" EDIT: though he was awarded 'honorary' degrees from several institutions. Would those pass muster these days? ;)
- iofj 10y ago
  Would you seriously want a lawyer who has learned only from books ? Such a lawyer would have very little experience in representing clients, and would not have learned from experienced lawyers. Law has tons of grand overarching principles, that are extremely unclear unless you learn how to think about them. Furthermore, I don't think anyone can learn how to interpret conflicting laws, and likely outcomes under complex circumstances in any way other than practicing it under guidance from an experienced judge. Furthermore a lawyer should be a good negotiator, should know how to apply client privilege in practice, should know ... And you might say, become an apprentice somewhere. Yes, but if we do that, we'll go back to lawyers being a protected profession : only family of existing lawyers can learn from good lawyers and become good themselves. That wouldn't be a 100% thing but this would make it impossible for 99% of the population to become a good lawyer. You also don't want bad lawyers to exist at all, because of the damage they can do to clients. You must absolutely prevent lawyering from having a lemon law problem or the justice system will collapse into total randomness. The situation we have now, with the degrees, is a grand compromise that means anyone (with some small amount of money, and little connections) can become a respected lawyer. I wouldn't mess with it unless you're prepared to see massive unexpected consequences.
unethical_ban 10y ago
Look at the way things could be, and ask "Why not?" I'm not going to reject the ideal of college as a place to expand intellect because one common use is as a trade school.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
cmdkeen 10y ago
Law is also the sort of degree that is full of potentially triggering discussion. Law is also the sort of career in which you can't just opt out of the discussion. There are plenty of wider discussions to be had about this whole thing. Ensuring that faculty are good teachers, which includes the empathy to broach difficult subjects with sensitivity and moderate debate. The provision of welfare services to students to assist them to make the most of their studies. Listening to a minority whose refusal to engage and demand that others cave in to their views harms society - and in many instances harms the very people making the demands. Victims of sexual assaults need a justice system that is better at understanding issues of consent, victim blaming and the harm victim may be put through by a trial - and how to weigh that up against the right to confront your accuser. Ethnic minorities need a society better educated in history, understanding of cultural differences and similarities who continue to be more progressive and accepting than previous generations.
kd0amg 10y ago
Get a research position doing the kind of work PhD's do? Avoiding exposure to ideas that challenge your own is not a good strategy for becoming an effective researcher.
echaozh 10y ago
Well, if universities are doing so wrong, you would expect people coming out to fix the problem by competing with them, at least in a free market like the States. You may say they have, by setting up trade schools, whatever they are. If the trade schools are not doing enough, that's the problem of the trade schools, rather than of the universities. If the trade schools can provide good enough education, employers will recognize credentials they provide. If employers don't recognize them, there must be something missing from their education. The piece missing may well be what universities want the students to learn: communication with those you don't like.
fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
But to be a lawyer high up in a corporate firm or get a research position you had damn well better be used to a free and open exchange of ideas. It is part of the "credentials for employment" that you can handle debate and can handle other people having radically different viewpoints and discussing uncomfortable topics.
grkvlt 10y ago
> Susan Finley. After 46 successful years at NASA, they demoted her - because she didn't have a bachelor's degree This is rather disingenuous. According to an article in the NYT [1] she just had her job title changed in 2004, from 'Engineer' to 'Engineering Specialist.' Her salary and status did not change. See the excerpt below: Instead, Ms. Finley, who never finished her degree, fell into a newly created classification: engineering specialist, an hourly position. Her overall pay did not change, and she is now eligible for overtime. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/science/space/nasa-juno-susan-finley.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/science/space/nasa-juno-su...
- Chathamization 10y ago
  You left out this part: > But the change still irks Ms. Finley; she must mark down her arrival each day, her half-hour of lunch and the time she leaves to go home. > “It’s a demotion,” she said. “No one wants a demotion. We want to be treated like we deserve. But it’s true. I don’t have a degree.” Nathalia Holt, a science writer who wrote a book about Finley and others, also considers it a demotion: http://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-women-who-brought-us-apollo-11/ http://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-women-who-brought-...

wyldfire 10y ago

> Want to be a lawyer ... Perfect example! Law is one career where you can learn everything you need to know by reading books (ok, maybe all of them are that way..). Yet legislators (many lawyers themselves) in several states have introduced new laws to limit licensure only to those who have degrees. This would've excluded notables like Lincoln, Jefferson, Darrow, Marshall.

tnecniv 10y ago
What's the justification for doing this?
- cuckcuckspruce 10y ago
  The Bar Association is a modern guild. They don't want competition.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
jessaustin 10y ago
Jefferson, at least, graduated from the College of William & Mary.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  True, he studied law there but was never offered a "degree". "I see on your C.V. you've written 'The United States Declaration of Independence' -- nice job! Oh but no JD? Tsk. Next!" EDIT: though he was awarded 'honorary' degrees from several institutions. Would those pass muster these days? ;)
iofj 10y ago
Would you seriously want a lawyer who has learned only from books ? Such a lawyer would have very little experience in representing clients, and would not have learned from experienced lawyers. Law has tons of grand overarching principles, that are extremely unclear unless you learn how to think about them. Furthermore, I don't think anyone can learn how to interpret conflicting laws, and likely outcomes under complex circumstances in any way other than practicing it under guidance from an experienced judge. Furthermore a lawyer should be a good negotiator, should know how to apply client privilege in practice, should know ... And you might say, become an apprentice somewhere. Yes, but if we do that, we'll go back to lawyers being a protected profession : only family of existing lawyers can learn from good lawyers and become good themselves. That wouldn't be a 100% thing but this would make it impossible for 99% of the population to become a good lawyer. You also don't want bad lawyers to exist at all, because of the damage they can do to clients. You must absolutely prevent lawyering from having a lemon law problem or the justice system will collapse into total randomness. The situation we have now, with the degrees, is a grand compromise that means anyone (with some small amount of money, and little connections) can become a respected lawyer. I wouldn't mess with it unless you're prepared to see massive unexpected consequences.

unethical_ban 10y ago

Look at the way things could be, and ask "Why not?" I'm not going to reject the ideal of college as a place to expand intellect because one common use is as a trade school.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

cmdkeen 10y ago

Law is also the sort of degree that is full of potentially triggering discussion. Law is also the sort of career in which you can't just opt out of the discussion. There are plenty of wider discussions to be had about this whole thing. Ensuring that faculty are good teachers, which includes the empathy to broach difficult subjects with sensitivity and moderate debate. The provision of welfare services to students to assist them to make the most of their studies. Listening to a minority whose refusal to engage and demand that others cave in to their views harms society - and in many instances harms the very people making the demands. Victims of sexual assaults need a justice system that is better at understanding issues of consent, victim blaming and the harm victim may be put through by a trial - and how to weigh that up against the right to confront your accuser. Ethnic minorities need a society better educated in history, understanding of cultural differences and similarities who continue to be more progressive and accepting than previous generations.

kd0amg 10y ago

Get a research position doing the kind of work PhD's do? Avoiding exposure to ideas that challenge your own is not a good strategy for becoming an effective researcher.

echaozh 10y ago

Well, if universities are doing so wrong, you would expect people coming out to fix the problem by competing with them, at least in a free market like the States. You may say they have, by setting up trade schools, whatever they are. If the trade schools are not doing enough, that's the problem of the trade schools, rather than of the universities. If the trade schools can provide good enough education, employers will recognize credentials they provide. If employers don't recognize them, there must be something missing from their education. The piece missing may well be what universities want the students to learn: communication with those you don't like.

fdgdasfadsf 10y ago

But to be a lawyer high up in a corporate firm or get a research position you had damn well better be used to a free and open exchange of ideas. It is part of the "credentials for employment" that you can handle debate and can handle other people having radically different viewpoints and discussing uncomfortable topics.

grkvlt 10y ago

> Susan Finley. After 46 successful years at NASA, they demoted her - because she didn't have a bachelor's degree This is rather disingenuous. According to an article in the NYT [1] she just had her job title changed in 2004, from 'Engineer' to 'Engineering Specialist.' Her salary and status did not change. See the excerpt below: Instead, Ms. Finley, who never finished her degree, fell into a newly created classification: engineering specialist, an hourly position. Her overall pay did not change, and she is now eligible for overtime. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/science/space/nasa-juno-susan-finley.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/science/space/nasa-juno-su...

Chathamization 10y ago
You left out this part: > But the change still irks Ms. Finley; she must mark down her arrival each day, her half-hour of lunch and the time she leaves to go home. > “It’s a demotion,” she said. “No one wants a demotion. We want to be treated like we deserve. But it’s true. I don’t have a degree.” Nathalia Holt, a science writer who wrote a book about Finley and others, also considers it a demotion: http://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-women-who-brought-us-apollo-11/ http://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-women-who-brought-...