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I think this should be a requirement for any university that wants accreditation and certainly all state-run institutions. This is a bold statement not for the

by joesmo 10y ago

I think this should be a requirement for any university that wants accreditation and certainly all state-run institutions. This is a bold statement not for the Uni. of Chicago, but for every other university that does not have a similar policy in place. Sorry, but you cannot get a proper education with trigger warnings and safe spaces. Therefore, those institutions that do not have the courage to stand up for education should lose their accreditation. Until we start holding institutions and individuals responsible for their actions, however, this will not happen, and holding institutions and individuals responsible for their actions is not something that, at least in the US, we know how to do well or at all.

zyxley 10y ago
> Sorry, but you cannot get a proper education with trigger warnings and safe spaces. How so?
- mikeash 10y ago
  The article links to another one discussing the difficulty of teaching law in this environment, because many aspects of law are potentially "triggering": http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap...
  - zyxley 10y ago
    I don't really see the relevance of the article. It complains a lot about students being oversensitive to bad things, but it has barely anything to do with actual trigger warnings. Trigger warnings aren't about bending to the every whim of everyone you encounter. They're about labeling material ahead of time so that people can make a more informed decision about when and how they expose themselves to it. Nothing about this requires changing educational material; it would just mean putting some notice in the class listings and syllabus about what potentially uncomfortable topics are going to be covered in detail.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      I think the author is saying that trigger warnings end up going beyond simply warning people of potentially objectionable content. Once you start putting in trigger warnings, it starts to look like official support for avoiding the potentially objectionable material, and students start picking and choosing what they learn while still expecting to be able to get good grades. If all you want to do is inform people about what you're going to discuss, a good syllabus will take care of it. There's no need to put in any warnings. College students should be intelligent enough to work out for themselves what topics they might not like. Much of this debate seems to center on the platonic ideal of "trigger warning" and "safe space" versus how they actually end up working with real students and real universities.
    - wang_li 10y ago
      > informed decision about when and how they expose themselves to it. Being able to face uncomfortable ideas and events is a hallmark of an educated, resilient mind. People who never practice that resilience can hardly be considered having achieved the status that one would normally associate with a liberal university level education.
fixermark 10y ago
> Sorry, but you cannot get a proper education with trigger warnings and safe spaces. [citation needed]
- gcoda 10y ago
  when someone lecturing about evolutionary biological differences in "progressive" universities nobody listens and constantly interrupted by triggered liberals. And same guy with same lecture in more technical or business oriented university will educate more people, on how to exploit evolution to gain more profit. Some people will gain knowledge and profit from it while some will get triggered. I heard about experiences like this before, but this one is form Gad Saad on Joe Rogan podcast. https://youtu.be/TjBgeuTvnnk?t=1h36m9s https://youtu.be/TjBgeuTvnnk?t=1h36m9s
- joesmo 10y ago
  Citation is not needed because you can't learn something you can't discuss and you can't properly discuss anything with trigger warnings and safe spaces. I guess we traded trigger warnings and safe spaces for logic in school these days.
  - fixermark 10y ago
    I don't see why you can't properly discuss anything with trigger warnings and safe spaces. You can discuss any topic you want, in the proper location, with people who want to discuss it. That's basically just human interaction etiquette, codified.
    - joesmo 10y ago
      Totally agree. The students can leave. They will get a zero. They will fail the course. They will eventually have to drop out. That's the natural order of things. But let's not pretend you can have a conversation with people that do not want to have one. The problem is these idiots also want to pass the course they didn't attend and didn't learn anything from or they want the course censored. Either way, by making these demands, they are the ones attacking students who actually put in the work to learn and students that want to actually learn and not get rid of classes or lessons they don't agree with. No matter how you look at it, it ends up in censorship if you begin to entertain the ridiculous censorship demands of students. If I was the school's president, I would make sure these people who disrupt class and attack other students' freedoms fail for their lack of work and get kicked out for their attacks on education and other students' ability to obtain a proper education. Have the president say to the student: "You don't want to participate in the discussion? Here's a fucking zero. Now get the fuck out of my class and if it continues, get the fuck out of my university. Most people here are actually here to learn, not disrupt the education of others." That's basically what U of Chicago is saying ahead of time now and what most universities refuse to say because the money is so plentiful right now.
norea-armozel 10y ago
So student associations shouldn't be allowed to not allow certain people into their meetings if they're found to be abusive? Because that's the point of a safe space if you didn't know. It's not unlike support groups who can and will eject people who are known to be abusive or otherwise disclose information outside the support group without permission of all members. So, to say that safe spaces shouldn't be allowed is a bit questionable because people take safe space to mean the entire university campus and annexes rather than private spaces of student associations, sororities, and fraternities. And as for trigger warnings, I think they too have a place at least in terms of notifying students if certain topics will be discussed in the class. If that's too much to ask as well then I'm glad I'm not going to the University of Chicago.
- secabeen 10y ago
  No, because the statement expressly says "freedom of expression does not mean the freedom to harass or threaten others."
  - gcoda 10y ago
    Not really, your freedom ends when you diminishing someone else freedom. Harassing and threatening do not make people less free. Even Mozart was considered offensive some times, some people was triggered and described his music as immoral . So, freedom of expression should be without any restriction, except when it stepping on freedom of other people.
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      But that's a different topic. "You can say anything you want" is different from "you can say anything you want in our meeting". Saying that Mozart can compose anything he wants is different from saying that the symphony has to play it, and that I have to go.
      - gcoda 10y ago
        Yes, but in education, this is dangerous way. Whole point of science is to critique, if you are triggered by facts, and university bans "hostile" ideas you can not even discuss it. There is a place and time, but you should have a right to oppose creationism, for example. At least you should be not afraid to ask questions or state facts. And if everything is safe space, and everybody is triggered this is totally oppose to scientific principles and contradicts whole point of education. edit: "you can say anything you want in our meeting" in practical terms, if there is a meeting about wage gap, you should be able to state facts that contradicts narrative, and not be afraid that you will be force to apologize for trigerring or even quit university

by joesmo 10y ago

zyxley 10y ago

> Sorry, but you cannot get a proper education with trigger warnings and safe spaces. How so?

mikeash 10y ago
The article links to another one discussing the difficulty of teaching law in this environment, because many aspects of law are potentially "triggering": http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap...
- zyxley 10y ago
  I don't really see the relevance of the article. It complains a lot about students being oversensitive to bad things, but it has barely anything to do with actual trigger warnings. Trigger warnings aren't about bending to the every whim of everyone you encounter. They're about labeling material ahead of time so that people can make a more informed decision about when and how they expose themselves to it. Nothing about this requires changing educational material; it would just mean putting some notice in the class listings and syllabus about what potentially uncomfortable topics are going to be covered in detail.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I think the author is saying that trigger warnings end up going beyond simply warning people of potentially objectionable content. Once you start putting in trigger warnings, it starts to look like official support for avoiding the potentially objectionable material, and students start picking and choosing what they learn while still expecting to be able to get good grades. If all you want to do is inform people about what you're going to discuss, a good syllabus will take care of it. There's no need to put in any warnings. College students should be intelligent enough to work out for themselves what topics they might not like. Much of this debate seems to center on the platonic ideal of "trigger warning" and "safe space" versus how they actually end up working with real students and real universities.
  - wang_li 10y ago
    > informed decision about when and how they expose themselves to it. Being able to face uncomfortable ideas and events is a hallmark of an educated, resilient mind. People who never practice that resilience can hardly be considered having achieved the status that one would normally associate with a liberal university level education.

fixermark 10y ago

> Sorry, but you cannot get a proper education with trigger warnings and safe spaces. [citation needed]

gcoda 10y ago
when someone lecturing about evolutionary biological differences in "progressive" universities nobody listens and constantly interrupted by triggered liberals. And same guy with same lecture in more technical or business oriented university will educate more people, on how to exploit evolution to gain more profit. Some people will gain knowledge and profit from it while some will get triggered. I heard about experiences like this before, but this one is form Gad Saad on Joe Rogan podcast. https://youtu.be/TjBgeuTvnnk?t=1h36m9s https://youtu.be/TjBgeuTvnnk?t=1h36m9s
joesmo 10y ago
Citation is not needed because you can't learn something you can't discuss and you can't properly discuss anything with trigger warnings and safe spaces. I guess we traded trigger warnings and safe spaces for logic in school these days.
- fixermark 10y ago
  I don't see why you can't properly discuss anything with trigger warnings and safe spaces. You can discuss any topic you want, in the proper location, with people who want to discuss it. That's basically just human interaction etiquette, codified.
  - joesmo 10y ago
    Totally agree. The students can leave. They will get a zero. They will fail the course. They will eventually have to drop out. That's the natural order of things. But let's not pretend you can have a conversation with people that do not want to have one. The problem is these idiots also want to pass the course they didn't attend and didn't learn anything from or they want the course censored. Either way, by making these demands, they are the ones attacking students who actually put in the work to learn and students that want to actually learn and not get rid of classes or lessons they don't agree with. No matter how you look at it, it ends up in censorship if you begin to entertain the ridiculous censorship demands of students. If I was the school's president, I would make sure these people who disrupt class and attack other students' freedoms fail for their lack of work and get kicked out for their attacks on education and other students' ability to obtain a proper education. Have the president say to the student: "You don't want to participate in the discussion? Here's a fucking zero. Now get the fuck out of my class and if it continues, get the fuck out of my university. Most people here are actually here to learn, not disrupt the education of others." That's basically what U of Chicago is saying ahead of time now and what most universities refuse to say because the money is so plentiful right now.

norea-armozel 10y ago

So student associations shouldn't be allowed to not allow certain people into their meetings if they're found to be abusive? Because that's the point of a safe space if you didn't know. It's not unlike support groups who can and will eject people who are known to be abusive or otherwise disclose information outside the support group without permission of all members. So, to say that safe spaces shouldn't be allowed is a bit questionable because people take safe space to mean the entire university campus and annexes rather than private spaces of student associations, sororities, and fraternities. And as for trigger warnings, I think they too have a place at least in terms of notifying students if certain topics will be discussed in the class. If that's too much to ask as well then I'm glad I'm not going to the University of Chicago.

secabeen 10y ago
No, because the statement expressly says "freedom of expression does not mean the freedom to harass or threaten others."
- gcoda 10y ago
  Not really, your freedom ends when you diminishing someone else freedom. Harassing and threatening do not make people less free. Even Mozart was considered offensive some times, some people was triggered and described his music as immoral . So, freedom of expression should be without any restriction, except when it stepping on freedom of other people.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    But that's a different topic. "You can say anything you want" is different from "you can say anything you want in our meeting". Saying that Mozart can compose anything he wants is different from saying that the symphony has to play it, and that I have to go.
    - gcoda 10y ago
      Yes, but in education, this is dangerous way. Whole point of science is to critique, if you are triggered by facts, and university bans "hostile" ideas you can not even discuss it. There is a place and time, but you should have a right to oppose creationism, for example. At least you should be not afraid to ask questions or state facts. And if everything is safe space, and everybody is triggered this is totally oppose to scientific principles and contradicts whole point of education. edit: "you can say anything you want in our meeting" in practical terms, if there is a meeting about wage gap, you should be able to state facts that contradicts narrative, and not be afraid that you will be force to apologize for trigerring or even quit university