12 ms·

Or... you know... just use something like Telegram that isn't owned by Facebook. Their data-sharing / privacy policy is pretty simple https://telegram.org/priv

by skrowl 10y ago

Or... you know... just use something like Telegram that isn't owned by Facebook. Their data-sharing / privacy policy is pretty simple https://telegram.org/privacy https://telegram.org/privacy 1. Sharing data We never share your data with anyone. No.

gyosko 10y ago
If only more people used Telegram.. I love it, but only a couple of friends use it.
- mercer 10y ago
  Try to convince them anyways. Once they get past the grumbling of installing a new app and the entirely hypothetical inconvenience of having multiple chat apps, they'll realize that in practice it isn't really much cause for inconvenience.
  - Joeboy 10y ago
    Having to look in half a dozen apps to track down information is not a hypothetical inconvenience.
    - mercer 10y ago
      Oddly enough I expected to run into that problem, but in practice it's hardly ever been an issue. I think in my particular case it helps that I generally insist on using email or telegram for communication where it's important to find it again later. But you're right. At times I've had to search for information because I didn't remember which communication tool we used.
      - Joeboy 10y ago
        I work on lots of projects with lots of people, and I end up with hundreds of conversations spread over Email, SMS/Signal, Facebook, Skype and WhatsApp. It frustrates the hell out of me. The great thing about Signal for me is that it also handles SMS so there's no extra app to check. But yeah, no group chats, no desktop client, most conversations are unencrypted anyway because normal people don't care about privacy. If anybody were to ask me to use Telegram I'd be pleased they had an interest in encrypting our communications but annoyed about having to install yet another app.
        mercer 10y ago
        Yeah, in your situation I understand the frustration. By the way, if you're using a Mac you might like 'Franz': http://meetfranz.com/ http://meetfranz.com/
- skrowl 10y ago
  There was a serious FUD campaign started by one of the developers of now competing app Signal a few years ago. Now if you mention Telegram on Reddit you're immediately bombed with "OMG TELEGRAM CRYPTO IS BROKEN!" even though 0 people on earth have ever provably decrypted a Telegram message. They even offered a $300K bounty where you could act as the server... no takers.
  - Phlarp 10y ago
    Somehow, I don't think you are going to find more sympathy for Telegram's broken crypto (or Signal's "FUD" campaign) here on HN. At the end of the day, for many nerds looking at these two pieces of software and their developers-- Moxie comes out looking a lot more serious about privacy and more experienced with crypto than Nikolai and Pavel. To say nothing of Telegrams closed source cloud app model, questionable financing strategy or debatable ties to the Russian intelligence apparatus.
    - skrebbel 10y ago
      > questionable financing strategy or debatable ties to the Russian intelligence apparatus. Soo you counter FUD with FUD. Great strategy!
  - dsacco 10y ago
    I don't have skin in this game, but I want to mention that contests are not evidence of security. Furthermore, cryptographers other than those working at Signal have expressed distrust for its security.[1][2] What Telegram should do to earn the trust of the technical community (specifically, the security savvy people who criticize it for unorthodox encryption methodologies), is contract a real audit from a leading security firm that specializes in cryptanalysis, like Riscure. [1]: https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/726428912968982529 https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/72642891296898252... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9775080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9775080
    - hueving 10y ago
      >is contract a real audit from a leading security firm Suggestions like this do nothing to dispell the image that modern security firms are little more than a protection racket. If you don't pay for "an audit" from an "industry leading" firm, you'll be shunned by everyone.
- boobsbr 10y ago
  does Telegram offer voice messages and calls?
  - gyosko 10y ago
    No, and a lot of people don't like it because it's cloud based too.
    - treehau5 10y ago
      Is this really a concern people have? Do people think on-prem is somehow inherently more secure? They expose their services through the internet. Minus a few details it's all the same. There are pros/cons in both sides.
  - skrowl 10y ago
    Recorded voice messages yes. Live / phone call style voice messages no.
- zaidf 10y ago
  For me, Telegram's small user base is actually what got me on it. My whatsapp is full of way too many groups that I can't leave without negative social consequences. So the one group that I cared about the most (a group with my siblings), we all decided to move to Telegram and haven't looked back since! It's awesome to just have the few closest people on an app and not having to fear that you'll accidentally send a message to the wrong person or group.
  - skrowl 10y ago
    They hit 100 million monthly active users back in Feb. I'm not sure that's a small user base by most of our terms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software)#Usage_numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software)#Usage_numb...
    - thewhitetulip 10y ago
      I think they meant by the small user base in your friends. :)
  - iklos89 10y ago
    Regarding negative social consequences ... Today I switched phones and wanted to transfer my Whatsapp contacts to the new phone. What Whatsapp did: Somehow they managed to delete me from each and every group I had been in, deleted every chat and I cannot access this anymore. I already had to explain to three friends why I left our group as they were furious because we had talked about important things in those groups. Just to say this didn't happen with Telegram. Recovered everything smoothly with no errors.
    - saint_fiasco 10y ago
      > deleted every chat Whatsapp never stores the chat history anywhere. All conversations are encrypted end to end.
      - denzil_correa 10y ago
SnaKeZ 10y ago
You're right, that's the reason why I didn't install WhatsApp et similia
krelian 10y ago
Who finances Telegram? Who pays for the serves?
- burkaman 10y ago
  > Pavel Durov, who shares our vision, supplied Telegram with a generous donation through his Digital Fortress fund, so we have quite enough money for the time being. If Telegram runs out, we'll invite our users to donate and add non-essential paid options to break even. But making profits will never be a goal for Telegram. - https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-out-of-this https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-o...
  - eatbitseveryday 10y ago
    Who funds their "crack our encryption" contest[1]? I imagine also the same pot? [1] https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest
    - burkaman 10y ago
      Yeah, I think the "pot" might just be Pavel's bank account. He also recently offered to fund $1 million of grants: https://telegram.org/blog/botprize https://telegram.org/blog/botprize. I assume he announced the Crypto Contest and hoped/assumed nobody would win.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  It's all in their FAQ.
- Phlarp 10y ago
  Mostly? The Kremlin...
libeclipse 10y ago
Telegram uses a home-brewed crypto protocol and posted a challenge to break it by pasting some ciphertext. In my eyes they're ridiculous. Just use Signal Messager.
- ge0rg 10y ago
  Signal uses a home-brewed crypto protocol(^) and their CTO disallows third party clients, even based on their own open source code. Just use XMPP. (^) Granted, moxie can be considered a crypto expert, and the design got some public auditing.
  - dsacco 10y ago
    The Axolotl key management algorithm was jointly developed by Moxie and Trevor Perrin. Both of them are widely respected in cryptography, and the protocol has undergone formal cryptanalysis. A novel crypto algorithm someone puts up on GitHub is "home-brewed." The Axolotl algorithm can no longer fairly be described as "home-brewed."
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    You can go start, pay for and manage your own server set and go hog wild writing whatever client you want to.
- erlehmann_ 10y ago
  The author of Signal (Moxie Marlinspike) seems actively hostile to not only federation efforts but also compatibility with other clients, even one that only removed the dependency of Signal on Google Play Services: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/signal-lock-in.html http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/signal-lock-in.ht...
  - hointytointy 10y ago
    Not to mention the questionable ethics of supporting companies that are so blatantly anti-user. Facebook and Google can now tout "Moxie approved" crypto while their business models of surveillance remain intact.
kennell 10y ago
Who keeps the lights on? The app is free, i have never seen any ads.
- skrowl 10y ago
  Private funding. It's in their FAQ.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  Just wait till they get enough users. And then we will see their real business model. At the end of the day, all these guys get enough users and then the users are just too tied to the platform to make an easy move.
- chimprich 10y ago
  WhatsApp users to receive adverts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37184651 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37184651
fossuser 10y ago
It's not clear to me why anyone would use Telegram over Signal.
- skrowl 10y ago
  Features / usability over perceived improvements to privacy / security. If you had actually used both, it would be clear why people use Telegram over Signal. Signal doesn't even have a desktop client for any OS!
  - eatbitseveryday 10y ago
    > Signal doesn't even have a desktop client for any OS! [1] https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/
    - tdkl 10y ago
      > Signal Desktop is a Chrome app So yeah, the statement from parent still stands.
      - pfg 10y ago
        The line between desktop and web apps is becoming more and more blurred these days, so this seems like an inconsequential argument.
        tdkl 10y ago
        It's not even a web app. It's a CHROME app. A web app would be accessible via any browser. But nice to see the Google propaganda working.
      - eatbitseveryday 10y ago
        So this argument is just a technicality. Please understand a little more about the background: There is basically one person writing the app[1], and given the company has just a few[2] people _volunteering_[3] for them, you cannot expect them to release a large amount of code across so many devices. They prioritized the highest volume first. Open Whisper Systems primarily develops a strong encryption protocol (Moxie's efforts). If you didn't realize, this protocol was adopted by WhatsApp[4] and also Facebook Messenger[5]. So, the developers of those other applications needn't spend time/resources on the encryption, but can release Desktop clients for people like yourself to enjoy. People who use Signal trust Moxie. People who dislike Signal _may_ care more about features than the security properties of the software (note, WhatsApp doesn't open-source their software[6], and Telegram instead bets people cannot break their encryption[7]). Also, their app will supposedly run on any OS that Chrome runs. I'm sure that was the intention. [1] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Desktop/commits/master https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Desktop/commits/mas... [2] https://whispersystems.org/#team https://whispersystems.org/#team [3] https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/ https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/ [4] https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepaper.pdf https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepap... [5] https://whispersystems.org/blog/facebook-messenger/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/facebook-messenger/ [6] https://www.whatsapp.com/opensource/ https://www.whatsapp.com/opensource/ [7] https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest
sp332 10y ago
It's not owned by Facebook yet.
landryraccoon 10y ago
If you're in the contact list of anyone who uses WhatsApp they already have your info.
milcron 10y ago
I notice nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the FOSS (Apache license), cross-platform, encrypted messenger ChatSecure https://chatsecure.org/ https://chatsecure.org/ The Guardian Project writes a bunch of nice software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian_Project_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian_Project_(software...
- kuschku 10y ago
  Why not use Conversations.im? https://conversations.im/ https://conversations.im/ It’s actually usable, supports a lot more encryption methods, is more up to date, and actually looks okay.
  - whyever 10y ago
    > supports a lot more encryption methods That sounds like an anti-feature.

by skrowl 10y ago

gyosko 10y ago

If only more people used Telegram.. I love it, but only a couple of friends use it.

mercer 10y ago
Try to convince them anyways. Once they get past the grumbling of installing a new app and the entirely hypothetical inconvenience of having multiple chat apps, they'll realize that in practice it isn't really much cause for inconvenience.
- Joeboy 10y ago
  Having to look in half a dozen apps to track down information is not a hypothetical inconvenience.
  - mercer 10y ago
    Oddly enough I expected to run into that problem, but in practice it's hardly ever been an issue. I think in my particular case it helps that I generally insist on using email or telegram for communication where it's important to find it again later. But you're right. At times I've had to search for information because I didn't remember which communication tool we used.
    - Joeboy 10y ago
      I work on lots of projects with lots of people, and I end up with hundreds of conversations spread over Email, SMS/Signal, Facebook, Skype and WhatsApp. It frustrates the hell out of me. The great thing about Signal for me is that it also handles SMS so there's no extra app to check. But yeah, no group chats, no desktop client, most conversations are unencrypted anyway because normal people don't care about privacy. If anybody were to ask me to use Telegram I'd be pleased they had an interest in encrypting our communications but annoyed about having to install yet another app.
      - mercer 10y ago
        Yeah, in your situation I understand the frustration. By the way, if you're using a Mac you might like 'Franz': http://meetfranz.com/ http://meetfranz.com/
skrowl 10y ago
There was a serious FUD campaign started by one of the developers of now competing app Signal a few years ago. Now if you mention Telegram on Reddit you're immediately bombed with "OMG TELEGRAM CRYPTO IS BROKEN!" even though 0 people on earth have ever provably decrypted a Telegram message. They even offered a $300K bounty where you could act as the server... no takers.
- Phlarp 10y ago
  Somehow, I don't think you are going to find more sympathy for Telegram's broken crypto (or Signal's "FUD" campaign) here on HN. At the end of the day, for many nerds looking at these two pieces of software and their developers-- Moxie comes out looking a lot more serious about privacy and more experienced with crypto than Nikolai and Pavel. To say nothing of Telegrams closed source cloud app model, questionable financing strategy or debatable ties to the Russian intelligence apparatus.
  - skrebbel 10y ago
    > questionable financing strategy or debatable ties to the Russian intelligence apparatus. Soo you counter FUD with FUD. Great strategy!
- dsacco 10y ago
  I don't have skin in this game, but I want to mention that contests are not evidence of security. Furthermore, cryptographers other than those working at Signal have expressed distrust for its security.[1][2] What Telegram should do to earn the trust of the technical community (specifically, the security savvy people who criticize it for unorthodox encryption methodologies), is contract a real audit from a leading security firm that specializes in cryptanalysis, like Riscure. [1]: https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/726428912968982529 https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/72642891296898252... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9775080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9775080
  - hueving 10y ago
    >is contract a real audit from a leading security firm Suggestions like this do nothing to dispell the image that modern security firms are little more than a protection racket. If you don't pay for "an audit" from an "industry leading" firm, you'll be shunned by everyone.
boobsbr 10y ago
does Telegram offer voice messages and calls?
- gyosko 10y ago
  No, and a lot of people don't like it because it's cloud based too.
  - treehau5 10y ago
    Is this really a concern people have? Do people think on-prem is somehow inherently more secure? They expose their services through the internet. Minus a few details it's all the same. There are pros/cons in both sides.
- skrowl 10y ago
  Recorded voice messages yes. Live / phone call style voice messages no.
zaidf 10y ago
For me, Telegram's small user base is actually what got me on it. My whatsapp is full of way too many groups that I can't leave without negative social consequences. So the one group that I cared about the most (a group with my siblings), we all decided to move to Telegram and haven't looked back since! It's awesome to just have the few closest people on an app and not having to fear that you'll accidentally send a message to the wrong person or group.
- skrowl 10y ago
  They hit 100 million monthly active users back in Feb. I'm not sure that's a small user base by most of our terms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software)#Usage_numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software)#Usage_numb...
  - thewhitetulip 10y ago
    I think they meant by the small user base in your friends. :)
- iklos89 10y ago
  Regarding negative social consequences ... Today I switched phones and wanted to transfer my Whatsapp contacts to the new phone. What Whatsapp did: Somehow they managed to delete me from each and every group I had been in, deleted every chat and I cannot access this anymore. I already had to explain to three friends why I left our group as they were furious because we had talked about important things in those groups. Just to say this didn't happen with Telegram. Recovered everything smoothly with no errors.
  - saint_fiasco 10y ago
    > deleted every chat Whatsapp never stores the chat history anywhere. All conversations are encrypted end to end.
    - denzil_correa 10y ago

SnaKeZ 10y ago

You're right, that's the reason why I didn't install WhatsApp et similia

krelian 10y ago

Who finances Telegram? Who pays for the serves?

burkaman 10y ago
> Pavel Durov, who shares our vision, supplied Telegram with a generous donation through his Digital Fortress fund, so we have quite enough money for the time being. If Telegram runs out, we'll invite our users to donate and add non-essential paid options to break even. But making profits will never be a goal for Telegram. - https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-out-of-this https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-o...
- eatbitseveryday 10y ago
  Who funds their "crack our encryption" contest[1]? I imagine also the same pot? [1] https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest
  - burkaman 10y ago
    Yeah, I think the "pot" might just be Pavel's bank account. He also recently offered to fund $1 million of grants: https://telegram.org/blog/botprize https://telegram.org/blog/botprize. I assume he announced the Crypto Contest and hoped/assumed nobody would win.
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
It's all in their FAQ.
Phlarp 10y ago
Mostly? The Kremlin...

libeclipse 10y ago

Telegram uses a home-brewed crypto protocol and posted a challenge to break it by pasting some ciphertext. In my eyes they're ridiculous. Just use Signal Messager.

ge0rg 10y ago
Signal uses a home-brewed crypto protocol(^) and their CTO disallows third party clients, even based on their own open source code. Just use XMPP. (^) Granted, moxie can be considered a crypto expert, and the design got some public auditing.
- dsacco 10y ago
  The Axolotl key management algorithm was jointly developed by Moxie and Trevor Perrin. Both of them are widely respected in cryptography, and the protocol has undergone formal cryptanalysis. A novel crypto algorithm someone puts up on GitHub is "home-brewed." The Axolotl algorithm can no longer fairly be described as "home-brewed."
- mahyarm 10y ago
  You can go start, pay for and manage your own server set and go hog wild writing whatever client you want to.
erlehmann_ 10y ago
The author of Signal (Moxie Marlinspike) seems actively hostile to not only federation efforts but also compatibility with other clients, even one that only removed the dependency of Signal on Google Play Services: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/signal-lock-in.html http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/signal-lock-in.ht...
- hointytointy 10y ago
  Not to mention the questionable ethics of supporting companies that are so blatantly anti-user. Facebook and Google can now tout "Moxie approved" crypto while their business models of surveillance remain intact.

kennell 10y ago

Who keeps the lights on? The app is free, i have never seen any ads.

skrowl 10y ago
Private funding. It's in their FAQ.
the_common_man 10y ago
Just wait till they get enough users. And then we will see their real business model. At the end of the day, all these guys get enough users and then the users are just too tied to the platform to make an easy move.
chimprich 10y ago
WhatsApp users to receive adverts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37184651 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37184651

fossuser 10y ago

It's not clear to me why anyone would use Telegram over Signal.

skrowl 10y ago
Features / usability over perceived improvements to privacy / security. If you had actually used both, it would be clear why people use Telegram over Signal. Signal doesn't even have a desktop client for any OS!
- eatbitseveryday 10y ago
  > Signal doesn't even have a desktop client for any OS! [1] https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/
  - tdkl 10y ago
    > Signal Desktop is a Chrome app So yeah, the statement from parent still stands.
    - pfg 10y ago
      The line between desktop and web apps is becoming more and more blurred these days, so this seems like an inconsequential argument.
      - tdkl 10y ago
        It's not even a web app. It's a CHROME app. A web app would be accessible via any browser. But nice to see the Google propaganda working.
    - eatbitseveryday 10y ago
      So this argument is just a technicality. Please understand a little more about the background: There is basically one person writing the app[1], and given the company has just a few[2] people _volunteering_[3] for them, you cannot expect them to release a large amount of code across so many devices. They prioritized the highest volume first. Open Whisper Systems primarily develops a strong encryption protocol (Moxie's efforts). If you didn't realize, this protocol was adopted by WhatsApp[4] and also Facebook Messenger[5]. So, the developers of those other applications needn't spend time/resources on the encryption, but can release Desktop clients for people like yourself to enjoy. People who use Signal trust Moxie. People who dislike Signal _may_ care more about features than the security properties of the software (note, WhatsApp doesn't open-source their software[6], and Telegram instead bets people cannot break their encryption[7]). Also, their app will supposedly run on any OS that Chrome runs. I'm sure that was the intention. [1] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Desktop/commits/master https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Desktop/commits/mas... [2] https://whispersystems.org/#team https://whispersystems.org/#team [3] https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/ https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/ [4] https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepaper.pdf https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepap... [5] https://whispersystems.org/blog/facebook-messenger/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/facebook-messenger/ [6] https://www.whatsapp.com/opensource/ https://www.whatsapp.com/opensource/ [7] https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest https://telegram.org/blog/cryptocontest

sp332 10y ago

It's not owned by Facebook yet.

landryraccoon 10y ago

If you're in the contact list of anyone who uses WhatsApp they already have your info.

milcron 10y ago

I notice nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the FOSS (Apache license), cross-platform, encrypted messenger ChatSecure https://chatsecure.org/ https://chatsecure.org/ The Guardian Project writes a bunch of nice software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian_Project_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian_Project_(software...

kuschku 10y ago
Why not use Conversations.im? https://conversations.im/ https://conversations.im/ It’s actually usable, supports a lot more encryption methods, is more up to date, and actually looks okay.
- whyever 10y ago
  > supports a lot more encryption methods That sounds like an anti-feature.