6 ms·

> https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 That "Option 1" optout is the darkest dark pattern I've ever seen

by gergles 10y ago

> https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 That "Option 1" optout is the darkest dark pattern I've ever seen. A secret hidden checkbox that only shows up if you tap "yes, I'd like read 2000 words of legal jargon", which doesn't do anything anyway, because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. They just might choose not to use it for ad targeting if you check the box. Gross, gross, gross. Also, has anyone else noticed "to fight spam and abuse" is the "think of the children" of Internet services? Any invasive technique (SMS verification, browser fingerprinting, trying to sniff out unique hardware hashes, DRM) is always presented as "fighting spammers". Just an interesting sidebar.

mtgx 10y ago
> because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. Correction - Facebook already got your numbers (and has been doing recommendations based on them). I've been noticing Facebook recommendations based on Whatsapp numbers I have for many months. So they already have the numbers. But they're probably legally obliged to announce it in a privacy policy change that they will use them to target ads at you.
- kingosticks 10y ago
  They surely do have my numbers i.e the phone numbers in my address book (for other people), but do they actually have my number? Every time I visit the facebook website i get a popup asking me to update my profile with my phone number. Note that I do not have the facebook app installed.
  - newscracker 10y ago
    Even in your case, there are some possible ways for Facebook to know your number. People on your "friends" list may have allowed Facebook to sync their contacts (and allowed continuous sync) from their address books on email accounts or with the Facebook app on their devices. Especially if any of them are or were using a version of Android older than Marshmallow (6.x), where app permissions are/were granted at installation time on an "grant all or can't-use-the-app" basis, here are the permissions they have definitely granted the Facebook application [1]: * Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts * Phone directly call phone numbers read call log read phone status and identity write call log Even if different people in your address book use slightly different names to refer to you in their address books, it wouldn't take a lot for Facebook to figure out what your number is. And just because Facebook asks you for your number, it does not mean it isn't using information obtained from others. [1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.katana https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.k... (Check the Permissions section at the bottom of the app page and click on "View details" to see the list of permissions it asks for.)
- rogy 10y ago
  I find this so creepy. I get recommended people on facebook such as my Phsyio, whos number I don't even have saved. I've just spoken to him on Whatsapp. Bizarre.
  - onedognight 10y ago
    Privacy requires both communicators to agree on the level. For example if your Phsyio's address book has your number and that address book is shared with Facebook, then Facebook knows the two of you communicate.
- vithlani 10y ago
  This. I got a recommendation to befriend a workmate's daughter. Workmate has no FB account, the only way they made the match was after he sent me a WhatsApp message.
MichaelMoser123 10y ago
wonderful, a successor for whatsapp is now getting its chance. Everybody i know was using gmail for sending messages, and then they did a few awkward redesigns and told us that we should not expect too much in terms of privacy [1]. Whatsapp got its chance and promised privacy and integrity - and everybody started to use WhatsApp instead of mail (still they have to store the messages on the server for delivery and don't tell you for how long they do that). I guess new startups that do messaging get another chance. [1] http://techland.time.com/2013/08/14/google-says-gmail-users-have-no-legitimate-expectation-of-privacy/ http://techland.time.com/2013/08/14/google-says-gmail-users-...
- rvschuilenburg 10y ago
  I remember Telegram saw a huge increase in users shortly after the announcement was made that Facebook would buy WhatsApp.
  - collyw 10y ago
    I bought an Ubuntu phone and tried to get my friends to switch to Telegram. Too much momentum with Whatsapp and only 1 in ten users seems to even understand the privacy issues let along get them to act on it.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      Don't give up : ) After some of my friends swiched a few groups, switching has happened naturally group by group since Telegram arrived and today I just have to struggle with my siblings and a local group that also contains a number of elderly people that I won't force to change. (For those who are not aware Telegram is dimilar to Whatsapp but with less focus on formal verifiable crypto but with other advantages like not-owned-by-neither-Facebook-nor-Google, simpler anf more powerful UI, opensource, a choice of multiple clients, better desktop client, bot API etc etc. The lack of verifiable crypto is still an issue but as long as Facebook owns Whatsapp it seems crypto doesn't help too much :-/ )
    - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
skybrian 10y ago
You're seeing this everywhere because spam and abuse make everything suck. That's reality. Any service that doesn't have some way of fighting it eventually devolves into a cesspit.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Honestly: they don't need to feed data into their <del>spam cannon</del> adtech to solve spam? Next up: These guys are selling booze to support AA!
  - skybrian 10y ago
    Even companies that are part of the problem need defenses.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      If they had promised to only use it for anti spam then maybe. Just guessing here but: Now they have been very open about their intentions to use it to target ads and I cannot see any reason they should have to embellish this more than necessary so I guess this is the absolute minimum their lawyers told them they could get away with.

by gergles 10y ago

mtgx 10y ago

> because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. Correction - Facebook already got your numbers (and has been doing recommendations based on them). I've been noticing Facebook recommendations based on Whatsapp numbers I have for many months. So they already have the numbers. But they're probably legally obliged to announce it in a privacy policy change that they will use them to target ads at you.

kingosticks 10y ago
They surely do have my numbers i.e the phone numbers in my address book (for other people), but do they actually have my number? Every time I visit the facebook website i get a popup asking me to update my profile with my phone number. Note that I do not have the facebook app installed.
- newscracker 10y ago
  Even in your case, there are some possible ways for Facebook to know your number. People on your "friends" list may have allowed Facebook to sync their contacts (and allowed continuous sync) from their address books on email accounts or with the Facebook app on their devices. Especially if any of them are or were using a version of Android older than Marshmallow (6.x), where app permissions are/were granted at installation time on an "grant all or can't-use-the-app" basis, here are the permissions they have definitely granted the Facebook application [1]: * Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts * Phone directly call phone numbers read call log read phone status and identity write call log Even if different people in your address book use slightly different names to refer to you in their address books, it wouldn't take a lot for Facebook to figure out what your number is. And just because Facebook asks you for your number, it does not mean it isn't using information obtained from others. [1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.katana https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.k... (Check the Permissions section at the bottom of the app page and click on "View details" to see the list of permissions it asks for.)
rogy 10y ago
I find this so creepy. I get recommended people on facebook such as my Phsyio, whos number I don't even have saved. I've just spoken to him on Whatsapp. Bizarre.
- onedognight 10y ago
  Privacy requires both communicators to agree on the level. For example if your Phsyio's address book has your number and that address book is shared with Facebook, then Facebook knows the two of you communicate.
vithlani 10y ago
This. I got a recommendation to befriend a workmate's daughter. Workmate has no FB account, the only way they made the match was after he sent me a WhatsApp message.

MichaelMoser123 10y ago

wonderful, a successor for whatsapp is now getting its chance. Everybody i know was using gmail for sending messages, and then they did a few awkward redesigns and told us that we should not expect too much in terms of privacy [1]. Whatsapp got its chance and promised privacy and integrity - and everybody started to use WhatsApp instead of mail (still they have to store the messages on the server for delivery and don't tell you for how long they do that). I guess new startups that do messaging get another chance. [1] http://techland.time.com/2013/08/14/google-says-gmail-users-have-no-legitimate-expectation-of-privacy/ http://techland.time.com/2013/08/14/google-says-gmail-users-...

rvschuilenburg 10y ago
I remember Telegram saw a huge increase in users shortly after the announcement was made that Facebook would buy WhatsApp.
- collyw 10y ago
  I bought an Ubuntu phone and tried to get my friends to switch to Telegram. Too much momentum with Whatsapp and only 1 in ten users seems to even understand the privacy issues let along get them to act on it.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Don't give up : ) After some of my friends swiched a few groups, switching has happened naturally group by group since Telegram arrived and today I just have to struggle with my siblings and a local group that also contains a number of elderly people that I won't force to change. (For those who are not aware Telegram is dimilar to Whatsapp but with less focus on formal verifiable crypto but with other advantages like not-owned-by-neither-Facebook-nor-Google, simpler anf more powerful UI, opensource, a choice of multiple clients, better desktop client, bot API etc etc. The lack of verifiable crypto is still an issue but as long as Facebook owns Whatsapp it seems crypto doesn't help too much :-/ )
  - MichaelMoser123 10y ago

skybrian 10y ago

You're seeing this everywhere because spam and abuse make everything suck. That's reality. Any service that doesn't have some way of fighting it eventually devolves into a cesspit.

reitanqild 10y ago
Honestly: they don't need to feed data into their <del>spam cannon</del> adtech to solve spam? Next up: These guys are selling booze to support AA!
- skybrian 10y ago
  Even companies that are part of the problem need defenses.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    If they had promised to only use it for anti spam then maybe. Just guessing here but: Now they have been very open about their intentions to use it to target ads and I cannot see any reason they should have to embellish this more than necessary so I guess this is the absolute minimum their lawyers told them they could get away with.