10 ms·

WhatsApp is going to share your phone number with Facebook

138 points by kawera 10y ago

creshal 10y ago
I'm surprised it took them so long.
- gerbilly 10y ago
  Yeah, it's probably what they purchased WhatsApp for in the first place.
kallu 10y ago
What's the big deal?
- rvschuilenburg 10y ago
  WhatsApp has always said to take user privacy seriously. It's been one of their arguments of being a subscription-based app instead of free when they were not owned by Facebook yet: they didn't want to show any ads. Now, this pretty much sums it up: > Another change is potentially more controversial: WhatsApp says it will begin "coordinating" accounts with Facebook by sharing WhatsApp users' mobile phone numbers and device information, such as the type of operating system and other smartphone characteristics. The company says Facebook will employ the phone number internally to better identify WhatsApp users on Facebook, so it can recommend friends or show targeted advertising.
  - akerro 10y ago
    >WhatsApp has always said to take user privacy seriously. and google has always said 'Don't be evil' lol
- the_common_man 10y ago
  Phone number might identify you.
zanalyzer 10y ago
I for one disapprove
kichuku 10y ago
The article specifies that we can opt out of it. But it doesn't say how to do it? Does it? Does anyone know how to opt out?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  Technically, you can but you a limited time window. https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 This is a dark pattern. In fact, once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to opt-out. > After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. I can't see such an option on my phone.
  - imron 10y ago
    > Technically, you can Technically you can't The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.
    - denzil_correa 10y ago
      There are some places where your phone number will be used regardless of your choice - spam/abuse and there are some parts where it would not be used - targeted ads.
  - mbesto 10y ago
    I don't see it on my phone either (iPhone).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- 10y ago
webwanderings 10y ago
They're Facebook's property. They have all the rights to grab whatever the heck they can find on you, to slice and dice the data for their advantage. Stay two miles apart from their properties, if you do not wish to be touched.
- mattnewton 10y ago
  I never was on whatsapp, but I can imagine signing up for a property pre-aquisition and then being powerless to stop more of my data being sucked up by Facebook. Is the only solution to never sign up for a service without a privacy policy that lets you remove your data from the company in the event of a sale? I don't think I have ever seen such a clause.. It's not that I don't want any of my data in Facebook, that's more trouble than it's worth. It's that I don't want every detail of my life collated in one place. regardless of what that place is.
- tripzilch 10y ago
  > Stay two miles apart from their properties, if you do not wish to be touched. Presumably this includes FB-users.
kkm323 10y ago
facebook
kkm323 10y ago
faceboook
Jordrok 10y ago
This is why using phone numbers as account identifiers is a bad idea. (For the users, at least. Not necessarily for the companies who want to own those users.)
- superuser2 10y ago
  Arguably WhatsApp would have gotten nowhere if they required users to construct screen names and manually build their social graph on yet another service. It seems like every popular "personal" messaging service since Facebook got that way by bootstrapping on top of smartphone contacts.
- dingaling 10y ago
  My wife, who is rather dedicated about keeping away from Facebook, ordered a new pay-as-you-go SIM for use in an old Android phone specifically and only for WhatsApp. It seemed a bit of an expensive tactic, having to top-up with an initial £10, but now I realise she was quite prescient.
  - pooper 10y ago
    Does she still have that number? If not, will the new owner get WhatsApp messages sent to her if they use WhatsApp?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
aquratic 10y ago
What happens if a whatsapp user doesn't have a Facebook account? More interestingly, what if a someone never uses FB account on his/her phone, like I do?
- csydas 10y ago
  The latter isn't relevant - Facebook has full access to the data and likely has some major index to tie the two together. The simple communication data from Whatsapp alone is enough to find enough reference points for a high-confidence match with a Facebook profile. As for the former, also likely irrelevant - Facebook has been keeping Shadow Profiles [1-4] for some time now, and whether or not you have an account, Facebook probably knows a lot about you just from what you/other people/your browser leaks about you. This information likely will just be amalgamated into the existing profile. [1] http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-facebook-shadow-profile/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-... [2] http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-facebook-shadow-profile/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-... [3] http://www.wired.com/2014/10/privacy-friendster/ http://www.wired.com/2014/10/privacy-friendster/ [4] https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-profile-of-you-that-you-never-created https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-pr...
- ProAm 10y ago
  You'll have a shadow account on FB. They do this for all non-users.
- dspig 10y ago
  In my case, whatsapp asks to connect to my (non existent) facebook account every few weeks!
- intoverflow2 10y ago
  They store the data until you do (or until you register with a future FB product), if you finally get one they'll link the two together and already have an extensive profile of your behaviour they can now match with an FB profile. Having the FB account is just the last piece of the puzzle, they already know who you are if you use Insta and WhatsApp
matthewmacleod 10y ago
I'm like 99% certain they've been doing this for a while. I've noticed that anybody I talk to using WhatsApp quickly appears as a suggested contact on Facebook. As far as I'm aware, I did nothing to enable this. It does seem awfully creepy, but I guess if you care about privacy you're not using Facebook much anyway…
- malanj 10y ago
  Yes, I found the same (in South Africa, so have to assume that's globally true)
- TheCapn 10y ago
  How creepy Facebook is finally clicked for me after I gave my neighbor my phone number once moving to a new neighborhood. You know... in case my house lights on fire or something while I'm out. That night Facebook was suggesting I add my elderly neighbors as friends. We have 0 friends in common and I don't have Facebook installed on my phone (I just use the browser) so the only excuse I have is when they added me they must have some "share my contacts with Facebook" feature enabled. Now there's some forever connection between them and me on Facebook's servers even though I don't publicly link my phone number to Facebook, it's only added as a password/security recovery.
  - wmkn 10y ago
    I am pretty sure Facebook also makes a friend suggestion to you when the other person searched for your name or looked at your profile at any time in the past. Maybe your neighbor searched for your name after you gave your phone number to them.
    - binarymax 10y ago
      I believe FB also suggests based on location. If both were connected to FB on their phones when meeting in person, the location metadata is used.
  - Nicholas_C 10y ago
Natales 10y ago
Facebook paid a boat load of cash for WhatsApp. Why did you think they did it? out of the goodness of their heart? It's a business, people! and if you are not paying for it, their revenue stream must come from somewhere else. You are the product as much as the user. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't use it. Use Signal instead, which I do, and it's great. There are also alternatives like Wire, which is really good although it doesn't have the adoption WhatsApp has.
- kirkdouglas 10y ago
  They removed paid subscription several months ago. It seems that they can make more money from matching WhatsApp and Facebook social graphs than from annual subscription.
  - mcintyre1994 10y ago
    Did anyone ever pay for this? I mean, did they have some algorithm that concluded I and everyone I've asked were more likely to uninstall than pay, so we were never asked?
  - dhimes 10y ago
    That's truly remarkable. Facebook doesn't make that much money per users (about $1/user/month, as best as I can figure). I know people who would pay twice that for a privacy-keeping subscription tier.
    - rorykoehler 10y ago
      Do you know 2 billion people who would pay more than that for their privacy?
    - newscracker 10y ago
      When WhatsApp did have subscriptions in some regions, it was 99 cents per year, not per month. Facebook in the recent times has been making more than that.
tahirtaous 10y ago
facebook paid 16 billion dollars for WhatsApp, they will use all details
vonklaus 10y ago
Finally. I've been trying to give facebook my number for a while. I've tried: * Downloading Instagram without reading permissions. * Downloading whatsapp. * Downloading facebook chat. * Having friends upload their entire contacts lists to FB, WA, IG, and chat. * Using the website on mobile and directly putting in the data. * Using any of their services to message friends my number which becomes a perfectly formatted tel link. * tweeting zuck. Facebook has still managed to not retain my number. I mean, I'm still waiting for them to phone me up. If you see this FB, call me maybe?
nathanvanfleet 10y ago
I'm quite certain that maybe Apple has been doing this for a while as well. I can't seem to find any setting allowing FB to access my contacts but somehow people I've only texted, called or communicated over email are showing as suggestions too. But I'm not certain since they might have just cyber-stalked me.
- azdle 10y ago
  Could it be that those other people are sharing that info to facebook? They only need one side to allow sharing contacts to find the connection.
jamiesonbecker 10y ago
To avoid this, simply collect and destroy any phones owned by your friends who might have your phone number or email in their contact lists. I always use a sledge hammer for this, but some people prefer a sturdy boot. Don't forget to recycle!
- creshal 10y ago
  I know it's a joke, but it got me wondering: What kind of treatment do you need nowadays to actually safely destroy flash storage? I doubt a single smash from a sledgehammer/boot has a good chance of destroying SIM and internal storage and µSD card such that forensic analysis can't recover its data. Thermite?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - fractallyte 10y ago
    A microwave oven works really well... Only takes (literally!) 1 second. OK, 2 if you want to be thorough.
    - creshal 10y ago
      It's flashy, but does it really destroy the charge in the cells?
      - jamiesonbecker 10y ago
        Why make everything so difficult? So many options that it's hard to choose: EMP, solar storms, lightning, pyroclastic flows.. just stand right next to any cataclysmic cosmic event and you'll be taken care of.
  - newscracker 10y ago
    If you have full disk encryption (that you can rely on and no other security issues to deal with), then just erasing it by "throwing away the encryption key" is easier than physical destruction. Are there reasons why physical destruction would be preferred if these conditions are met?
2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y ago
OK - I think we can all agree this is shit. What are the (serious) alternatives?
- creshal 10y ago
  Something that's not VC funded or otherwise depending on external money sources, or you'll have the same problem again a few years down the road when $Alternative is asked to turn a profit.
  - 2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y ago
    OK, but a messenger app's usefulness is almost entirely (as with social networks) governed by its network effects. You can have the best tool in the world, but if no one uses it, it's worthless. It's a real shame that WA decided to drop their paid model (though at the price they were asking for it's clear to see why they'd favour this model). Do we just have to face up to the reality with social networks and communication apps such as these, which is that the power comes from most people using it, and when most people don't care (s/care/understand/) about privacy, the "freemium" (we can haz data) model is the most obvious to profit from and so the one to which all the successful businesses are drawn to?
    - creshal 10y ago
      > OK, but a messenger app's usefulness is almost entirely (as with social networks) governed by its network effects. You can have the best tool in the world, but if no one uses it, it's worthless. That's what we have been struggling with since the mid-90s, yes. IRC will always exists, but past that?
      - 2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y ago
        +1 for the suggestion of IRC being the best messaging app!
        10y ago
steinsgate 10y ago
What's the value of WhatsApp? It is the scale of the product. I use it because most of my friends are on it. There are many other alternatives to WhatsApp as pointed out by many in this thread, but none of them have nearly the same traction. The only business model that allows such scale is the ad supported model. If WhatsApp was subscription based, I am sure they could not have achieved this scale. And I wouldn't have found value in it. I realize that the ad supported model is what indirectly adds so much value to WhatsApp. Therefore, it makes sense to me to support that model if the model is reasonable enough. They have end to end encryption, which means my content is safe from prying eyes. That's already huge. So I really don't mind if they share my number with Facebook.
- sumitgt 10y ago
  WhatsApp is Ad supported? I don't think so. I believe until last year they were subscription based.
  - jcfrei 10y ago
    They were and sometime last year turned everybody's subscription into a lifetime subscription. I think it's only a matter of time until WhatsApp will show ads. I see more and more content being shared through it - eventually it will rival Facebook.
  - steinsgate 10y ago
    It is a free service as of now (at least for me, initially they said I would have to pay after an year, but this never happened). Technically, they don't even have a business model till now. What they have is scale. I think they are afraid that a subscription model will make users churn and they would end up losing the scale. The only other alternative is an ad supported free model or a freemium model. I am wondering if a freemium model would make sense for WhatsApp.
- mercer 10y ago
  I think the 'advantage' of WhatsApp is not as big as it seems. I already use Telegram with most people that I communicate with regularly who use WhatsApp for everything else. Almost every one of those people grumbled at first about having to install another app. But because of how the dominant phone UI's work, it turns out to be almost frictionless. I barely notice whether I get a message through WhatsApp, Telegram, or Facebook Messenger, because I either tap on the notification - and go right to the app and they all look basically the same - or I reply from the notification itself. There's one friend who is so used to WhatsApp that he'll generally initiate conversations through that, even though I tend to initiate or further conversations in Telegram. Neither of us ever made a comment about it. I hope I'm right, which means Facebook's stranglehold on communication and personal data might not be as strong as it appears. But I suspect they'll soon rollout more WeChat-like features such as payment, apps and bots that are a lot stickier. For example, I've been playing around with a number of Telegram bots, and for the first time since I started using all these different chat apps, I am bothered when I have to use a non-Telegram app, because it doesn't support my bots (ranging from silly gif-search-bots to more useful poll-bots). Payment integration would be even 'stickier'.
r00fus 10y ago
Is anyone surprised by this move? This seems part and parcel of the $19B purchase price. Maybe now, they can make FacePhone a reality. Not having to worry about POTS phone numbers when you're dialing someone is a killer feature.
alexcason 10y ago
"The ads would come through a Facebook program called "Custom Audiences," which lets a business upload lists of customers and phone numbers or other contact information the business has collected from warranty cards or other sources. Facebook matches the list to users with the same information and shows them ads. Facebook says it doesn't give out users' information to advertisers." What happens if the advertiser uploads only one phone number to their campaign? Will they then know for certain if the one user clicked on the advert?
segmondy 10y ago
This has been going on for the longest. My Facebook is for family and friends and no coworkers. Google+ and Linkedin for coworkers. I have some of my coworkers phone numbers, and have never exchanged whatsApp messages with them. About earlier this year they all started showing up on my Facebook suggestions. I don't have Facebook app, I only use it through the web interface so it's not like they got to scan my contacts. This leads me to strongly believe that WhatsApp is the culprit.
- mercer 10y ago
  Search is another explanation. Almost everyone I know, including myself, will search for pretty much anyone they interact with once they know a name. We're just too curious.
  - segmondy 10y ago
    I don't use my real name on Facebook. Nor the email that's tied to my Facebook account with my coworkers.
    - newscracker 10y ago
      It's possible that one or more of your co-workers just synced their contacts list, with all your email addresses and your phone number, to Facebook. That information, when intersected with the contacts list, with your phone number, any of your friends or family members synced with Facebook, could provide your details to Facebook (even if Facebook is not 100% sure, it might probably use it).
tlow 10y ago
"My friends know not to call me" - Ron (from Parks and Rec)
forgottenpass 10y ago
Remember when Whatsapp got bought? Respect for your privacy is coded into our DNA, and we built WhatsApp around the goal of knowing as little about you as possible [...] If partnering with Facebook meant that we had to change our values, we wouldn’t have done it. Instead, we are forming a partnership that would allow us to continue operating independently and autonomously. Our fundamental values and beliefs will not change. Our principles will not change. Everything that has made WhatsApp the leader in personal messaging will still be in place. Speculation to the contrary isn’t just baseless and unfounded, it’s irresponsible. [0] Well, good news for them. They never outlined what exactly their principles were, so they weren't technically lying. We just get to see how thin their principles (retroactively) turn out to be. [0] https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-straight https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-straight
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- hointytointy 10y ago
  Cory Doctorow explains why we need a "Ulysses Pact" to avoid situations like this. http://craphound.com/news/2016/06/24/how-to-protect-the-future-web-from-its-founders-own-frailty/ http://craphound.com/news/2016/06/24/how-to-protect-the-futu...
- thr0waway1239 10y ago
  Does anyone actually believe a word which these companies say? I think if at all there was a company which deserved some serious scrutiny under anti-trust, it was Facebook. Much more than Google or MSFT. They have done exactly the things which is supposed to be prevented by antitrust - I mean the "spirit of the law" and not the letter of the law. But hey, there are SO many social networks - look at LinkedIn, look at Google Plus, Twitter. Except that FB somehow ends up with all the data which everyone wishes wasn't stored in one place. I think it is just a matter of time before FB starts influencing elections to suit THEIR agenda (assuming they have not already started). Remember the experiment where they tried to deliberately influence people's emotions? [1] FB is now effectively a super creepy uber-government. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/29/facebook-users-emotions-news-feeds https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/29/facebook-... Question to anyone who works at Facebook: how come you promptly participate in the latest HN announcement of the newest JavaScript open source framework from FB and never bother to show up on these threads. Is ethics just completely off the table when you step foot inside the company doors? I remember someone talking about Zynga the company having "sold their soul". Not that Zynga doesn't rank very high on that chart, but boy, does FB absolutely top that list by a wide margin.
franole 10y ago
It's really sad how we lost control of our data. I always refused to inform my phone number to facebook. But they definitely try to guess it . It's funny how sometimes the FB app ask me "is xxxx xxxx your number?" Well, luckily it still has not succeeded. Once, I grabbed one of those guessed numbers and asked (over SMS) to that unknown person what was his name. It was no surprise when he told me that we have the same name and our surname started with the same letter. I think now they will stop guessing.
- chipperyman573 10y ago
  It just gave you a random valid phone number, along with a name (yours)? Doesn't that qualify as leaking PII?

138 points by kawera 10y ago

creshal 10y ago

I'm surprised it took them so long.

gerbilly 10y ago
Yeah, it's probably what they purchased WhatsApp for in the first place.

kallu 10y ago

What's the big deal?

rvschuilenburg 10y ago
WhatsApp has always said to take user privacy seriously. It's been one of their arguments of being a subscription-based app instead of free when they were not owned by Facebook yet: they didn't want to show any ads. Now, this pretty much sums it up: > Another change is potentially more controversial: WhatsApp says it will begin "coordinating" accounts with Facebook by sharing WhatsApp users' mobile phone numbers and device information, such as the type of operating system and other smartphone characteristics. The company says Facebook will employ the phone number internally to better identify WhatsApp users on Facebook, so it can recommend friends or show targeted advertising.
- akerro 10y ago
  >WhatsApp has always said to take user privacy seriously. and google has always said 'Don't be evil' lol
the_common_man 10y ago
Phone number might identify you.

zanalyzer 10y ago

I for one disapprove

kichuku 10y ago

The article specifies that we can opt out of it. But it doesn't say how to do it? Does it? Does anyone know how to opt out?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
denzil_correa 10y ago
Technically, you can but you a limited time window. https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 This is a dark pattern. In fact, once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to opt-out. > After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. I can't see such an option on my phone.
- imron 10y ago
  > Technically, you can Technically you can't The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    There are some places where your phone number will be used regardless of your choice - spam/abuse and there are some parts where it would not be used - targeted ads.
- mbesto 10y ago
  I don't see it on my phone either (iPhone).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
10y ago

webwanderings 10y ago

They're Facebook's property. They have all the rights to grab whatever the heck they can find on you, to slice and dice the data for their advantage. Stay two miles apart from their properties, if you do not wish to be touched.

mattnewton 10y ago
I never was on whatsapp, but I can imagine signing up for a property pre-aquisition and then being powerless to stop more of my data being sucked up by Facebook. Is the only solution to never sign up for a service without a privacy policy that lets you remove your data from the company in the event of a sale? I don't think I have ever seen such a clause.. It's not that I don't want any of my data in Facebook, that's more trouble than it's worth. It's that I don't want every detail of my life collated in one place. regardless of what that place is.
tripzilch 10y ago
> Stay two miles apart from their properties, if you do not wish to be touched. Presumably this includes FB-users.

kkm323 10y ago

facebook

kkm323 10y ago

faceboook

Jordrok 10y ago

This is why using phone numbers as account identifiers is a bad idea. (For the users, at least. Not necessarily for the companies who want to own those users.)

superuser2 10y ago
Arguably WhatsApp would have gotten nowhere if they required users to construct screen names and manually build their social graph on yet another service. It seems like every popular "personal" messaging service since Facebook got that way by bootstrapping on top of smartphone contacts.
dingaling 10y ago
My wife, who is rather dedicated about keeping away from Facebook, ordered a new pay-as-you-go SIM for use in an old Android phone specifically and only for WhatsApp. It seemed a bit of an expensive tactic, having to top-up with an initial £10, but now I realise she was quite prescient.
- pooper 10y ago
  Does she still have that number? If not, will the new owner get WhatsApp messages sent to her if they use WhatsApp?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

aquratic 10y ago

What happens if a whatsapp user doesn't have a Facebook account? More interestingly, what if a someone never uses FB account on his/her phone, like I do?

csydas 10y ago
The latter isn't relevant - Facebook has full access to the data and likely has some major index to tie the two together. The simple communication data from Whatsapp alone is enough to find enough reference points for a high-confidence match with a Facebook profile. As for the former, also likely irrelevant - Facebook has been keeping Shadow Profiles [1-4] for some time now, and whether or not you have an account, Facebook probably knows a lot about you just from what you/other people/your browser leaks about you. This information likely will just be amalgamated into the existing profile. [1] http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-facebook-shadow-profile/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-... [2] http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-facebook-shadow-profile/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-... [3] http://www.wired.com/2014/10/privacy-friendster/ http://www.wired.com/2014/10/privacy-friendster/ [4] https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-profile-of-you-that-you-never-created https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-pr...
ProAm 10y ago
You'll have a shadow account on FB. They do this for all non-users.
dspig 10y ago
In my case, whatsapp asks to connect to my (non existent) facebook account every few weeks!
intoverflow2 10y ago
They store the data until you do (or until you register with a future FB product), if you finally get one they'll link the two together and already have an extensive profile of your behaviour they can now match with an FB profile. Having the FB account is just the last piece of the puzzle, they already know who you are if you use Insta and WhatsApp

matthewmacleod 10y ago

I'm like 99% certain they've been doing this for a while. I've noticed that anybody I talk to using WhatsApp quickly appears as a suggested contact on Facebook. As far as I'm aware, I did nothing to enable this. It does seem awfully creepy, but I guess if you care about privacy you're not using Facebook much anyway…

malanj 10y ago
Yes, I found the same (in South Africa, so have to assume that's globally true)
TheCapn 10y ago
How creepy Facebook is finally clicked for me after I gave my neighbor my phone number once moving to a new neighborhood. You know... in case my house lights on fire or something while I'm out. That night Facebook was suggesting I add my elderly neighbors as friends. We have 0 friends in common and I don't have Facebook installed on my phone (I just use the browser) so the only excuse I have is when they added me they must have some "share my contacts with Facebook" feature enabled. Now there's some forever connection between them and me on Facebook's servers even though I don't publicly link my phone number to Facebook, it's only added as a password/security recovery.
- wmkn 10y ago
  I am pretty sure Facebook also makes a friend suggestion to you when the other person searched for your name or looked at your profile at any time in the past. Maybe your neighbor searched for your name after you gave your phone number to them.
  - binarymax 10y ago
    I believe FB also suggests based on location. If both were connected to FB on their phones when meeting in person, the location metadata is used.
- Nicholas_C 10y ago

Natales 10y ago

Facebook paid a boat load of cash for WhatsApp. Why did you think they did it? out of the goodness of their heart? It's a business, people! and if you are not paying for it, their revenue stream must come from somewhere else. You are the product as much as the user. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't use it. Use Signal instead, which I do, and it's great. There are also alternatives like Wire, which is really good although it doesn't have the adoption WhatsApp has.

kirkdouglas 10y ago
They removed paid subscription several months ago. It seems that they can make more money from matching WhatsApp and Facebook social graphs than from annual subscription.
- mcintyre1994 10y ago
  Did anyone ever pay for this? I mean, did they have some algorithm that concluded I and everyone I've asked were more likely to uninstall than pay, so we were never asked?
- dhimes 10y ago
  That's truly remarkable. Facebook doesn't make that much money per users (about $1/user/month, as best as I can figure). I know people who would pay twice that for a privacy-keeping subscription tier.
  - rorykoehler 10y ago
    Do you know 2 billion people who would pay more than that for their privacy?
  - newscracker 10y ago
    When WhatsApp did have subscriptions in some regions, it was 99 cents per year, not per month. Facebook in the recent times has been making more than that.

tahirtaous 10y ago

facebook paid 16 billion dollars for WhatsApp, they will use all details

vonklaus 10y ago

Finally. I've been trying to give facebook my number for a while. I've tried: * Downloading Instagram without reading permissions. * Downloading whatsapp. * Downloading facebook chat. * Having friends upload their entire contacts lists to FB, WA, IG, and chat. * Using the website on mobile and directly putting in the data. * Using any of their services to message friends my number which becomes a perfectly formatted tel link. * tweeting zuck. Facebook has still managed to not retain my number. I mean, I'm still waiting for them to phone me up. If you see this FB, call me maybe?

nathanvanfleet 10y ago

I'm quite certain that maybe Apple has been doing this for a while as well. I can't seem to find any setting allowing FB to access my contacts but somehow people I've only texted, called or communicated over email are showing as suggestions too. But I'm not certain since they might have just cyber-stalked me.

azdle 10y ago
Could it be that those other people are sharing that info to facebook? They only need one side to allow sharing contacts to find the connection.

jamiesonbecker 10y ago

To avoid this, simply collect and destroy any phones owned by your friends who might have your phone number or email in their contact lists. I always use a sledge hammer for this, but some people prefer a sturdy boot. Don't forget to recycle!

creshal 10y ago
I know it's a joke, but it got me wondering: What kind of treatment do you need nowadays to actually safely destroy flash storage? I doubt a single smash from a sledgehammer/boot has a good chance of destroying SIM and internal storage and µSD card such that forensic analysis can't recover its data. Thermite?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- fractallyte 10y ago
  A microwave oven works really well... Only takes (literally!) 1 second. OK, 2 if you want to be thorough.
  - creshal 10y ago
    It's flashy, but does it really destroy the charge in the cells?
    - jamiesonbecker 10y ago
      Why make everything so difficult? So many options that it's hard to choose: EMP, solar storms, lightning, pyroclastic flows.. just stand right next to any cataclysmic cosmic event and you'll be taken care of.
- newscracker 10y ago
  If you have full disk encryption (that you can rely on and no other security issues to deal with), then just erasing it by "throwing away the encryption key" is easier than physical destruction. Are there reasons why physical destruction would be preferred if these conditions are met?

2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y ago

OK - I think we can all agree this is shit. What are the (serious) alternatives?

creshal 10y ago
Something that's not VC funded or otherwise depending on external money sources, or you'll have the same problem again a few years down the road when $Alternative is asked to turn a profit.
- 2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y ago
  OK, but a messenger app's usefulness is almost entirely (as with social networks) governed by its network effects. You can have the best tool in the world, but if no one uses it, it's worthless. It's a real shame that WA decided to drop their paid model (though at the price they were asking for it's clear to see why they'd favour this model). Do we just have to face up to the reality with social networks and communication apps such as these, which is that the power comes from most people using it, and when most people don't care (s/care/understand/) about privacy, the "freemium" (we can haz data) model is the most obvious to profit from and so the one to which all the successful businesses are drawn to?
  - creshal 10y ago
    > OK, but a messenger app's usefulness is almost entirely (as with social networks) governed by its network effects. You can have the best tool in the world, but if no one uses it, it's worthless. That's what we have been struggling with since the mid-90s, yes. IRC will always exists, but past that?
    - 2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y ago
      +1 for the suggestion of IRC being the best messaging app!
      - 10y ago

steinsgate 10y ago

What's the value of WhatsApp? It is the scale of the product. I use it because most of my friends are on it. There are many other alternatives to WhatsApp as pointed out by many in this thread, but none of them have nearly the same traction. The only business model that allows such scale is the ad supported model. If WhatsApp was subscription based, I am sure they could not have achieved this scale. And I wouldn't have found value in it. I realize that the ad supported model is what indirectly adds so much value to WhatsApp. Therefore, it makes sense to me to support that model if the model is reasonable enough. They have end to end encryption, which means my content is safe from prying eyes. That's already huge. So I really don't mind if they share my number with Facebook.

sumitgt 10y ago
WhatsApp is Ad supported? I don't think so. I believe until last year they were subscription based.
- jcfrei 10y ago
  They were and sometime last year turned everybody's subscription into a lifetime subscription. I think it's only a matter of time until WhatsApp will show ads. I see more and more content being shared through it - eventually it will rival Facebook.
- steinsgate 10y ago
  It is a free service as of now (at least for me, initially they said I would have to pay after an year, but this never happened). Technically, they don't even have a business model till now. What they have is scale. I think they are afraid that a subscription model will make users churn and they would end up losing the scale. The only other alternative is an ad supported free model or a freemium model. I am wondering if a freemium model would make sense for WhatsApp.
mercer 10y ago
I think the 'advantage' of WhatsApp is not as big as it seems. I already use Telegram with most people that I communicate with regularly who use WhatsApp for everything else. Almost every one of those people grumbled at first about having to install another app. But because of how the dominant phone UI's work, it turns out to be almost frictionless. I barely notice whether I get a message through WhatsApp, Telegram, or Facebook Messenger, because I either tap on the notification - and go right to the app and they all look basically the same - or I reply from the notification itself. There's one friend who is so used to WhatsApp that he'll generally initiate conversations through that, even though I tend to initiate or further conversations in Telegram. Neither of us ever made a comment about it. I hope I'm right, which means Facebook's stranglehold on communication and personal data might not be as strong as it appears. But I suspect they'll soon rollout more WeChat-like features such as payment, apps and bots that are a lot stickier. For example, I've been playing around with a number of Telegram bots, and for the first time since I started using all these different chat apps, I am bothered when I have to use a non-Telegram app, because it doesn't support my bots (ranging from silly gif-search-bots to more useful poll-bots). Payment integration would be even 'stickier'.

r00fus 10y ago

Is anyone surprised by this move? This seems part and parcel of the $19B purchase price. Maybe now, they can make FacePhone a reality. Not having to worry about POTS phone numbers when you're dialing someone is a killer feature.

alexcason 10y ago

"The ads would come through a Facebook program called "Custom Audiences," which lets a business upload lists of customers and phone numbers or other contact information the business has collected from warranty cards or other sources. Facebook matches the list to users with the same information and shows them ads. Facebook says it doesn't give out users' information to advertisers." What happens if the advertiser uploads only one phone number to their campaign? Will they then know for certain if the one user clicked on the advert?

segmondy 10y ago

This has been going on for the longest. My Facebook is for family and friends and no coworkers. Google+ and Linkedin for coworkers. I have some of my coworkers phone numbers, and have never exchanged whatsApp messages with them. About earlier this year they all started showing up on my Facebook suggestions. I don't have Facebook app, I only use it through the web interface so it's not like they got to scan my contacts. This leads me to strongly believe that WhatsApp is the culprit.

mercer 10y ago
Search is another explanation. Almost everyone I know, including myself, will search for pretty much anyone they interact with once they know a name. We're just too curious.
- segmondy 10y ago
  I don't use my real name on Facebook. Nor the email that's tied to my Facebook account with my coworkers.
  - newscracker 10y ago
    It's possible that one or more of your co-workers just synced their contacts list, with all your email addresses and your phone number, to Facebook. That information, when intersected with the contacts list, with your phone number, any of your friends or family members synced with Facebook, could provide your details to Facebook (even if Facebook is not 100% sure, it might probably use it).

tlow 10y ago

"My friends know not to call me" - Ron (from Parks and Rec)

forgottenpass 10y ago

Remember when Whatsapp got bought? Respect for your privacy is coded into our DNA, and we built WhatsApp around the goal of knowing as little about you as possible [...] If partnering with Facebook meant that we had to change our values, we wouldn’t have done it. Instead, we are forming a partnership that would allow us to continue operating independently and autonomously. Our fundamental values and beliefs will not change. Our principles will not change. Everything that has made WhatsApp the leader in personal messaging will still be in place. Speculation to the contrary isn’t just baseless and unfounded, it’s irresponsible. [0] Well, good news for them. They never outlined what exactly their principles were, so they weren't technically lying. We just get to see how thin their principles (retroactively) turn out to be. [0] https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-straight https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-straight

deleted 10y ago
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hointytointy 10y ago
Cory Doctorow explains why we need a "Ulysses Pact" to avoid situations like this. http://craphound.com/news/2016/06/24/how-to-protect-the-future-web-from-its-founders-own-frailty/ http://craphound.com/news/2016/06/24/how-to-protect-the-futu...
thr0waway1239 10y ago
Does anyone actually believe a word which these companies say? I think if at all there was a company which deserved some serious scrutiny under anti-trust, it was Facebook. Much more than Google or MSFT. They have done exactly the things which is supposed to be prevented by antitrust - I mean the "spirit of the law" and not the letter of the law. But hey, there are SO many social networks - look at LinkedIn, look at Google Plus, Twitter. Except that FB somehow ends up with all the data which everyone wishes wasn't stored in one place. I think it is just a matter of time before FB starts influencing elections to suit THEIR agenda (assuming they have not already started). Remember the experiment where they tried to deliberately influence people's emotions? [1] FB is now effectively a super creepy uber-government. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/29/facebook-users-emotions-news-feeds https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/29/facebook-... Question to anyone who works at Facebook: how come you promptly participate in the latest HN announcement of the newest JavaScript open source framework from FB and never bother to show up on these threads. Is ethics just completely off the table when you step foot inside the company doors? I remember someone talking about Zynga the company having "sold their soul". Not that Zynga doesn't rank very high on that chart, but boy, does FB absolutely top that list by a wide margin.

franole 10y ago

It's really sad how we lost control of our data. I always refused to inform my phone number to facebook. But they definitely try to guess it . It's funny how sometimes the FB app ask me "is xxxx xxxx your number?" Well, luckily it still has not succeeded. Once, I grabbed one of those guessed numbers and asked (over SMS) to that unknown person what was his name. It was no surprise when he told me that we have the same name and our surname started with the same letter. I think now they will stop guessing.

chipperyman573 10y ago
It just gave you a random valid phone number, along with a name (yours)? Doesn't that qualify as leaking PII?