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For those of us who did use maps--most everyone I know--we didn't consider it cheating. The original form of the game sucked, and the maps worked like a communi

For those of us who did use maps--most everyone I know--we didn't consider it cheating. The original form of the game sucked, and the maps worked like a community-made patch to work around some of the shortcomings. Why bother playing when the entertaining part of the game is so diffuse? With maps, I'd gather a few coworkers for a safari when something cool popped up. Now we sit at our desks, catching the occasional thing that spawns in the building, but not going anywhere, and not even really interacting with each other. Why bother playing the way that Niantic wants you to when their way feels like a grind-y waste of time?

duaneb 10y ago
Well if everyone is playing a different game, it's no wonder nobody is having any fun. There is certainly no way for me to interact with you in a fair way if you're cheating past the limitations I'm enjoying.
- khedoros 10y ago
  I don't see a problem with that. Different strokes for different folks. What I'm enjoying is available to you, but you've chosen to limit yourself to a constricted set of abilities, because you (apparently) enjoy the limitations. Let's ignore the maps; pretend they never existed. I can drive wherever I want, but my time is limited. A child's time is less limited, but their location is more limited. A college student might be a mix of the two: mobile, with some significant free time. Another variable: location. In a rural location, there might not be a pokestop within several miles. In an urban location, there might be three within range of your home's family room. From my perspective, people are already playing a bunch of different games, based on available time, mobility, location, and density of other nearby players.
  - losvedir 10y ago
    > I don't see a problem with that. Different strokes for different folks. What I'm enjoying is available to you, but you've chosen to limit yourself to a constricted set of abilities, because you (apparently) enjoy the limitations. It matters if you then go on to hold gyms with your super pokemon and you're now out of the league of the non-maps players.
    - khedoros 10y ago
      It certainly does, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'd rather play the game as a "catch 'em all". I generally avoid gyms.
  - Trundle 10y ago
    I don't see a problem with that. Different strokes for different folks. What I'm enjoying is available to you, but you've chosen to limit yourself to a constricted set of abilities, because you (apparently) enjoy the limitations. Would you hold the same sentiment for GPS spoofers? Who jump around from gym to gym with their Dragonites and Snorlax that are far higher level than even a heavy map user would have? Or people that use aim bots in fps? Maphacks?
    - khedoros 10y ago
      Only to the degree that they don't damage other people's games. Jumping gym to gym isn't something I'd consider doing myself, but jumping to pokestops and avoiding gyms altogether? It's not my thing, but I don't see any harm. I think it's a difference in perception. I consider the location-locked nature of the game to be a central feature that contributes to the entertainment value of the game. I don't consider the location of the Pokemon being hidden a central feature at all; it feels more like and unfair hobble that saps the entertainment. > Or people that use aim bots in fps? Maphacks? I'm not going to argue that cheating in competitive multiplayer games is a good thing any more than I'd argue that cheating in ways that don't affect other players is a bad thing.
      - Trundle 10y ago
        Well sure, these people could technically play the game without affecting others. What's the point though? As a single player game Go is lacking and as a social game it's the hottest thing around. I'd be surprised to learn that there's people cheating and then not interacting with other players.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    It's a competitive game, though. By "unlimiting" yourself you're changing the rules for competitive play for everyone. It's a very selfish way to play the game. It's a relief you've stopped.
    - khedoros 10y ago
      > It's a competitive game, though. Again, we're playing very different games ;-) > By "unlimiting" yourself you're changing the rules for competitive play for everyone. Again, what competitive play? I'm not competing against you or anyone else, by any reasonable metric. > It's a very selfish way to play the game. It's a relief you've stopped. No more selfish than being relieved that other people aren't having fun anymore.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - duaneb 10y ago
        > Again, what competitive play? I'm not competing against you or anyone else, by any reasonable metric. You are competing for valuable pokemon, which IS the point of the game.
        bskap 10y ago
        Why do you think there's a competition for valuable pokemon? When a pokemon spawns in an area, it spawns for everyone in that area and everyone who stops by can catch it. You're not competing with everyone else to get there first.
        duaneb 10y ago
        > When a pokemon spawns in an area, it spawns for everyone in that area and everyone who stops by can catch it. Well, until someone catches it. Then it disappears.
        10y ago
  - calsy 10y ago
    Cheatings cheating doesn't matter who, what, where or how you play it. All games are bound by rules set for ALL players. No one gets to bend the rules of a game because of their circumstance for e.g. 'I work all day, so I should have access to tools that give me an advantage over others'. Games are not an equal opportunity endeavour where everyone gets to be a winner. Those who play by the rules and practice (or grind) should be rewarded, those who cheat should be penalised, simple.
    - wonder_er 10y ago
      This is fascinating to me. Your assessment is entirely defendable, yet in this situation I end up with the opposite assessment: "this is a make believe world with arbitrary rules - bend them as much as you can, because why not" >No one gets to bend the rules of a game because of their circumstance Again, I come to the opposite conclusion, that _because the rules are there_ they are fun to push, modify, bend, break. If you and I were having a conversation in just about any other context, most likely we would find so many areas in which we agree, and might even really enjoy the time spent. So, it's so funny to me that we might disagree so completely on something so foundational as rule-following behavior. Cheers!
      - calsy 10y ago
        Its a matter of fair play. I can setup bots to create level 40 characters with high CP pokemon with just a few eggs, walking half as much as other users. Then I'll just take over gyms with my OP pokemon and say 'hey, bending the rules, all good'. In most people's eye that's just dirty play. Same with maps, they are third-party tools used to shortcut success. Yes, the tracking sucks in game (im sure it will improve soon), but that doesn't justify having tools that say 'rare pokemon over here' without performing the actual hunting aspect of the game. That is no different to bots. What's the fun in everyone having rare pokemon without earning them. I'm not dissing maps, Niantic might even make their own official version in the future. But when people cry foul when their preferred method of 'bending the rules' is removed, I don't have much pity for them.
        10y ago
blkhp19 10y ago
Does it matter if you considered it cheating or not? You augmented the main, core part of the game to make it easier to catch pokemon. That sounds like some form of cheating to me.
- khedoros 10y ago
  It matters to me, although probably not to anyone else. > You augmented the main, core part of the game to make it easier to catch pokemon. And it improved a flawed game (for me) without harming your experience. > That sounds like some form of cheating to me. In that I gained an advantage over what the game provides? Yes. In that I gained an advantage over you or any other player? No. I'm not in competition with anyone. I consider it a fairly solitary game (don't see the point of teams and gyms).
  - sooheon 10y ago
    I lean towards agreeing with you, and I'd probably behave like you if I played the game. But one way in which you (in the aggregate, of "cheaters") do hurt others' experience is by artificially diluting the rarity of pokemon. That's a part of the experience for other players, which if you use tools to help yourself, indirectly is harmed. Not you personally, but the fact that such tools exist and people are using them.
derefr 10y ago
I don't quite understand the impulse to "fix" the game, though. As much as it's a commercial product, it's also a piece of art. Would you "fix" a movie? Or would you just avoid seeing it? Or—if you happen to be in film yourself—would you get some people together and make your own? I'm serious on that last one: the people who made the pokemon mapping apps could all get together and have enough pooled mobile-fronted and realtime-GIS backend knowledge to make a full-on clone of the game. (Maybe not with the original's art assets, but those burn battery-life anyway. Use some cute 2D pixel-art like the first-gen games; people's nostalgia will override their aesthetics!)
- zeveb 10y ago
  > Would you "fix" a movie? Have you ever heard of The Phantom Edit? Or A Phantom Edit? Or the Despecialised Edition?
- khedoros 10y ago
  > Would you "fix" a movie? Yes, if I had the time and artistic ability. I've enjoyed various unofficial re-cuttings of Star Wars, different edits of Blade Runner, and so on. I'd put other things in the same category: upscalers for emulated games, texture packs for N64 games and Minecraft, mods for Minecraft and every other game under the sun, re-implementations of game engines or whole games that introduce features not found in the originals, etc. > to make a full-on clone of the game. Nintendo shut down Pokemon Uranium within 9 days, after 9 years of fan development. If they'd only called it Rucksack Goblins and made up their own characters... I think that ways to extend an existing system in unintended directions are more interesting than most of the existing systems. Reinterpreting art is an art-form of its own.
  - derefr 10y ago
    > I've enjoyed various unofficial re-cuttings of Star Wars, different edits of Blade Runner, and so on. I'd put other things in the same category: upscalers for emulated games, texture packs for N64 games and Minecraft, mods for Minecraft and every other game under the sun, re-implementations of game engines or whole games that introduce features not found in the originals, etc. I would note that all of these fall either into the category of "creator encourages community involvement" or "creator has abandoned work and ignores community involvement." Yes, people participate when participation is a net-positive. What I was asking is why people would bother contributing their time and effort to effectively do software development for a company that actively tries to discourage them from doing so. It'd be like people making Minecraft mods and then Microsoft suing them for doing so. Surely people would re-implement the engine and start modding that, to get away from the abuse? > If they'd only called it Rucksack Goblins and made up their own characters... Yes, that's more what I meant. Why not create a Fanny-pack Gremlins March app?

duaneb 10y ago

Well if everyone is playing a different game, it's no wonder nobody is having any fun. There is certainly no way for me to interact with you in a fair way if you're cheating past the limitations I'm enjoying.

khedoros 10y ago
I don't see a problem with that. Different strokes for different folks. What I'm enjoying is available to you, but you've chosen to limit yourself to a constricted set of abilities, because you (apparently) enjoy the limitations. Let's ignore the maps; pretend they never existed. I can drive wherever I want, but my time is limited. A child's time is less limited, but their location is more limited. A college student might be a mix of the two: mobile, with some significant free time. Another variable: location. In a rural location, there might not be a pokestop within several miles. In an urban location, there might be three within range of your home's family room. From my perspective, people are already playing a bunch of different games, based on available time, mobility, location, and density of other nearby players.
- losvedir 10y ago
  > I don't see a problem with that. Different strokes for different folks. What I'm enjoying is available to you, but you've chosen to limit yourself to a constricted set of abilities, because you (apparently) enjoy the limitations. It matters if you then go on to hold gyms with your super pokemon and you're now out of the league of the non-maps players.
  - khedoros 10y ago
    It certainly does, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'd rather play the game as a "catch 'em all". I generally avoid gyms.
- Trundle 10y ago
  I don't see a problem with that. Different strokes for different folks. What I'm enjoying is available to you, but you've chosen to limit yourself to a constricted set of abilities, because you (apparently) enjoy the limitations. Would you hold the same sentiment for GPS spoofers? Who jump around from gym to gym with their Dragonites and Snorlax that are far higher level than even a heavy map user would have? Or people that use aim bots in fps? Maphacks?
  - khedoros 10y ago
    Only to the degree that they don't damage other people's games. Jumping gym to gym isn't something I'd consider doing myself, but jumping to pokestops and avoiding gyms altogether? It's not my thing, but I don't see any harm. I think it's a difference in perception. I consider the location-locked nature of the game to be a central feature that contributes to the entertainment value of the game. I don't consider the location of the Pokemon being hidden a central feature at all; it feels more like and unfair hobble that saps the entertainment. > Or people that use aim bots in fps? Maphacks? I'm not going to argue that cheating in competitive multiplayer games is a good thing any more than I'd argue that cheating in ways that don't affect other players is a bad thing.
    - Trundle 10y ago
      Well sure, these people could technically play the game without affecting others. What's the point though? As a single player game Go is lacking and as a social game it's the hottest thing around. I'd be surprised to learn that there's people cheating and then not interacting with other players.
- duaneb 10y ago
  It's a competitive game, though. By "unlimiting" yourself you're changing the rules for competitive play for everyone. It's a very selfish way to play the game. It's a relief you've stopped.
  - khedoros 10y ago
    > It's a competitive game, though. Again, we're playing very different games ;-) > By "unlimiting" yourself you're changing the rules for competitive play for everyone. Again, what competitive play? I'm not competing against you or anyone else, by any reasonable metric. > It's a very selfish way to play the game. It's a relief you've stopped. No more selfish than being relieved that other people aren't having fun anymore.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - duaneb 10y ago
      > Again, what competitive play? I'm not competing against you or anyone else, by any reasonable metric. You are competing for valuable pokemon, which IS the point of the game.
      - bskap 10y ago
        Why do you think there's a competition for valuable pokemon? When a pokemon spawns in an area, it spawns for everyone in that area and everyone who stops by can catch it. You're not competing with everyone else to get there first.
        duaneb 10y ago
        > When a pokemon spawns in an area, it spawns for everyone in that area and everyone who stops by can catch it. Well, until someone catches it. Then it disappears.
        10y ago
- calsy 10y ago
  Cheatings cheating doesn't matter who, what, where or how you play it. All games are bound by rules set for ALL players. No one gets to bend the rules of a game because of their circumstance for e.g. 'I work all day, so I should have access to tools that give me an advantage over others'. Games are not an equal opportunity endeavour where everyone gets to be a winner. Those who play by the rules and practice (or grind) should be rewarded, those who cheat should be penalised, simple.
  - wonder_er 10y ago
    This is fascinating to me. Your assessment is entirely defendable, yet in this situation I end up with the opposite assessment: "this is a make believe world with arbitrary rules - bend them as much as you can, because why not" >No one gets to bend the rules of a game because of their circumstance Again, I come to the opposite conclusion, that _because the rules are there_ they are fun to push, modify, bend, break. If you and I were having a conversation in just about any other context, most likely we would find so many areas in which we agree, and might even really enjoy the time spent. So, it's so funny to me that we might disagree so completely on something so foundational as rule-following behavior. Cheers!
    - calsy 10y ago
      Its a matter of fair play. I can setup bots to create level 40 characters with high CP pokemon with just a few eggs, walking half as much as other users. Then I'll just take over gyms with my OP pokemon and say 'hey, bending the rules, all good'. In most people's eye that's just dirty play. Same with maps, they are third-party tools used to shortcut success. Yes, the tracking sucks in game (im sure it will improve soon), but that doesn't justify having tools that say 'rare pokemon over here' without performing the actual hunting aspect of the game. That is no different to bots. What's the fun in everyone having rare pokemon without earning them. I'm not dissing maps, Niantic might even make their own official version in the future. But when people cry foul when their preferred method of 'bending the rules' is removed, I don't have much pity for them.
      - 10y ago

blkhp19 10y ago

Does it matter if you considered it cheating or not? You augmented the main, core part of the game to make it easier to catch pokemon. That sounds like some form of cheating to me.

khedoros 10y ago
It matters to me, although probably not to anyone else. > You augmented the main, core part of the game to make it easier to catch pokemon. And it improved a flawed game (for me) without harming your experience. > That sounds like some form of cheating to me. In that I gained an advantage over what the game provides? Yes. In that I gained an advantage over you or any other player? No. I'm not in competition with anyone. I consider it a fairly solitary game (don't see the point of teams and gyms).
- sooheon 10y ago
  I lean towards agreeing with you, and I'd probably behave like you if I played the game. But one way in which you (in the aggregate, of "cheaters") do hurt others' experience is by artificially diluting the rarity of pokemon. That's a part of the experience for other players, which if you use tools to help yourself, indirectly is harmed. Not you personally, but the fact that such tools exist and people are using them.

derefr 10y ago

I don't quite understand the impulse to "fix" the game, though. As much as it's a commercial product, it's also a piece of art. Would you "fix" a movie? Or would you just avoid seeing it? Or—if you happen to be in film yourself—would you get some people together and make your own? I'm serious on that last one: the people who made the pokemon mapping apps could all get together and have enough pooled mobile-fronted and realtime-GIS backend knowledge to make a full-on clone of the game. (Maybe not with the original's art assets, but those burn battery-life anyway. Use some cute 2D pixel-art like the first-gen games; people's nostalgia will override their aesthetics!)

zeveb 10y ago
> Would you "fix" a movie? Have you ever heard of The Phantom Edit? Or A Phantom Edit? Or the Despecialised Edition?
khedoros 10y ago
> Would you "fix" a movie? Yes, if I had the time and artistic ability. I've enjoyed various unofficial re-cuttings of Star Wars, different edits of Blade Runner, and so on. I'd put other things in the same category: upscalers for emulated games, texture packs for N64 games and Minecraft, mods for Minecraft and every other game under the sun, re-implementations of game engines or whole games that introduce features not found in the originals, etc. > to make a full-on clone of the game. Nintendo shut down Pokemon Uranium within 9 days, after 9 years of fan development. If they'd only called it Rucksack Goblins and made up their own characters... I think that ways to extend an existing system in unintended directions are more interesting than most of the existing systems. Reinterpreting art is an art-form of its own.
- derefr 10y ago
  > I've enjoyed various unofficial re-cuttings of Star Wars, different edits of Blade Runner, and so on. I'd put other things in the same category: upscalers for emulated games, texture packs for N64 games and Minecraft, mods for Minecraft and every other game under the sun, re-implementations of game engines or whole games that introduce features not found in the originals, etc. I would note that all of these fall either into the category of "creator encourages community involvement" or "creator has abandoned work and ignores community involvement." Yes, people participate when participation is a net-positive. What I was asking is why people would bother contributing their time and effort to effectively do software development for a company that actively tries to discourage them from doing so. It'd be like people making Minecraft mods and then Microsoft suing them for doing so. Surely people would re-implement the engine and start modding that, to get away from the abuse? > If they'd only called it Rucksack Goblins and made up their own characters... Yes, that's more what I meant. Why not create a Fanny-pack Gremlins March app?