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New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car
- beamatronic 10y agoThis last bit is an interesting statement, "While the P100D Ludicrous is obviously an expensive vehicle, we want to emphasize that every sale helps pay for the smaller and much more affordable Tesla Model 3 that is in development. Without customers willing to buy the expensive Model S and X, we would be unable to fund the smaller, more affordable Model 3 development."
- mey 10y agoThat's been Tesla's business plan for quite some time, use luxury cars to fund the company to mass production. It isn't news, but it does seem out of context.
- forgetsusername 10y ago>That's been Tesla's business plan for quite some time In practice, they've used stock dilution and debt to fund the business.
- wrsh07 10y agoPlus selling some higher end cars to extend their runway and build out production facilities...
- canes123456 10y agoThe high end cars have only been "profitable" recently. If you taken into account R&D and the production build up, the model s still in debt.
- _benedict 10y agoextending your runway implies unprofitable
- njharman 10y agohttps://finance.yahoo.com/quote/tsla/financials?ltr=1 https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/tsla/financials?ltr=1
- Randuin 10y agoIs the Model S not mass produced?
- mey 10y agoCompaing US sales of Model S for 2015 to say something like a Toyota RAV4 (a popular but not top selling car in the US) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Top_selling_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Top_selling_coun... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4 Model S 2015: 25,202 Toyota RAV 4 2015: 315,412 In the US, the best selling vehicle the Ford F-Series which sold 780,354 in 2015 So I wouldn't say it's not mass produced, but it hasn't hit full economy of scale, and isn't designed to.
- dsfyu404ed 10y agoIf you really want to make Tesla production numbers seem tiny then compare it to vehicle platforms.
- thinkmassive 10y agoCompared with other EVs the volumes seem pretty high: http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ Compared to a comparable line of luxury cars, for instance the BMW 5-series, the volumes are relatively low: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series#Production_and_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series#Production_and_sa...
- njharman 10y agoThe roadster wasn't, Each model has funded devel/production of the following model. I think parent meant S&X are funding "mass productions (model 3)"
- sowbug 10y agoProduction for the masses might be more on point.
- collinmanderson 10y agoThey frequently get a lot of people complaining that they're just selling really expensive luxury cars to the rich, so they have to keep repeating this. The high performance car is needed to both fund mass production and prove that electric cars aren't golf carts. Sorry, I tried finding a citation for that. It's in some Elon video from the past month or so.
- sowbug 10y agoSecret Master Plan from ten years ago: https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-j...
- collinmanderson 10y agoRight. Right. I mean I was looking for a citation on them getting a lot of complaints from people who don't know their master plan.
- biot 10y agoI was about to quote that myself. While it's true that their luxury models help fund newer models, it's rather odd to state that in a press release. It comes across as: "Please pay too much for this vehicle and help subsidize someone else's future purchase."
- ceejayoz 10y agoWhich can be effective, if marketed properly. See carbon credits and marketing products as carbon-neutral for an example.
- incongruity 10y agoSure, but even phrased that way, it differentiates it from some other potential substitute brands – Audi, BMW, etc. where there's no stated effort to produce a car "for everyone else." It may well help shift the brand reputation from luxury for profit to something like next-generation or innovation and progress.
- mikeash 10y agoI would read it more like: "I know several hundred thousand of you are eagerly anticipating the Model 3. Don't worry, we're still working hard to get it out, this is part of it, not a distraction from getting your cars to you."
- soared 10y ago"Your purchase will allow more consumers to make a similar, energy-saving, green purchase" Its a value-add of sorts, the money you give Tesla goes not to a massive car company, but to other consumers who have similar values to yours.
- njharman 10y ago"subsidize someone else's future purchase" Not what it says at all. And you'd have to be pretty oblivious to how companies, esp growing ones, operate (which I'll give you the average American probably is) to take it that way. The models sold today are subsidising the research, design, cost of operations(salaries) that lead to a model 3 launch. Tesla is feeding it's profits back into growth. Same as all growing companies do.
- gist 10y agoA clever marketing way of having people get over the guilt of buying a luxury product.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ethanbond 10y agoDoesn't mean it's illegitimate. Buying a luxury Tesla is better than buying a luxury BMW, for everyone.
- fossuser 10y agoSomething they have to repeatedly say to stop the press from going on about how they only make luxury cars for the rich. Elon's 'Top Secret Master Plan' has been around since the start.
- andrewtbham 10y agoIt is also to help influence people considering buying other electric vehicles... so if you're considering a bmw i8 or waiting for porsche mission e, you might think... this will help promote electric vehicles for the masses.
- seanp2k2 10y agoAnd other objectives, like colonizing space (SpaceX), standing up to the shady business of car dealerships and their stranglehold on car sales (Tesla cuts out that middle man), etc etc.
- clarkmoody 10y agoIt is precisely profit from one business venture that allows a firm to invest in order to produce additional goods for consumers. All the consumer demand in the world could not create a Tesla Model 3; only saving and investment can.
- sandworm101 10y agoThere is something odd about one consumer product funding another. Someone once wrote about the VW Veron that is was a shame that all the not-rich people buying VW Jettas paid a little more, and got a little worse of a car, so that a handful of the super rich could have Verons. Telsa would be doing the opposite. The rich people buying the expensive car are paying more, and getting less car, so that Tesla can make cheaper cars. Maybe Tesla will pull it off, but it seems unsustainable. VW could justify it as the Veron project was a tiny part of a giant company. Tesla isn't VW. Eventually someone will want to stovepipe the money made on one market into further developments for that market alone.
- dublinben 10y agoThe original title says "quickest" not "fastest." They're two very different claims, and only one of them is remotely true here.
- nibs 10y ago0-60 is what matters. Top speed is not a bottleneck anymore unless you are track racing. It has a 0-60 that is comparable to a Bugatti Veyron.
- cheeze 10y agoI'd argue that lap times are what matters. Fastest is a broad term. I'd expect that "the fastest production car in the world" would have no problem winning a race at a majority of tracks. "Fastest" has nothing to do with getting up to speed on the freeway.
- stcredzero 10y ago"Fastest" has nothing to do with getting up to speed on the freeway. But for day to day driving, getting up to highway speed, and acceleration at passing speeds with good handling while doing so are what I actually need.
- serge2k 10y agoOkay, but then don't make comparisons to cars like the 918 and LaFerrari. Or call it the fastest production car. Quickest maybe, even that is debateable. Quickest 0-60, sure.
- beachstartup 10y agohey, the new tesla fanboys need something to cheer for. they're new to this whole racing-cars-on-the-internet thing.
- 10y ago
- truckle 10y agoAccording to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_car... this puts the Model S on par with the Bugatti Veyron and Porsche 991 Turbo S
- Shivetya 10y agostill would prefer that would do more to extend the range instead of this fascination with acceleration, or better put a dick wagging contest. Get me good gasoline like car range then come back and wave your dick Musk, oh and thrown in five to ten minute charging. Until then I really do not care anymore. GM will beat you to market with a consumer friendly priced car and that is what matters. You helped kick start it but all that comes out recently is more speed, yawn. Can't use it and damn well can't do it over and over as the car gets slower as the charge goes down.
- davis_m 10y agoThe announcement is for a 100 kWh battery, which will extend the range.
- philipov 10y agoYou have got to be kidding me. Tesla seriously just named their car in homage to Spaceballs? How silly! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0
- razster 10y agoThis is obvious since it was first announced. Waiting for plaid to be an option.
- spullara 10y agoOriginally the vehicle models were going to be S, E, X. They changed them to S, 3, X...
- skykooler 10y agoAnd the upcoming compact SUV will be the Y.
- ctdonath 10y agoAnd the current stylized "E" and "3" are the same symbol. Seems Ford owns the trademark "Model E", hence the "3". http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/03/18/tesla-motors-incs-model-3-logo-revealed.aspx http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/03/18/tesla-motor...
- gist 10y agoOwning a new 911 and even paying extra for the sport exhaust noting that there are people who actually like the sound of the engine as adding to the experience of speed. (Also the torque curve which I assume with tesla is somewhat constant). Not to mention the manual transmission which obviously doesn't exist in an electric car. Driving even a 911 with the PDK isn't the same experience although performance wise it is better than the manual.
- Shebanator 10y agoYou had me agreeing with you til you got to the "Manual Transmission Master Race" argument :-)
- ceejayoz 10y agoThis seems a bit like saying "people like motorcycles so no one will ever want a sports car". Some people are going to value the raw performance over the sound and stick.
- spullara 10y agoYou realize that the Tesla is a manual right? There is only 1 gear :)
- _rpd 10y ago> The Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode is the third fastest accelerating production car ever produced, with a 0-60 mph time of 2.5* seconds. However, both the LaFerrari and the Porsche 918 Spyder were limited run, million dollar vehicles and cannot be bought new.
- Swannie 10y ago> * Expected value using max power mode and Motor Trend benchmark Suggesting that this is expected value, and not observed performance? Edit: Or they are suggesting that you could potentially reach that value in "ideal" conditions, using the Motor Trend method to adjust some observed values to this normalised time?
- Yabood 10y agoAs far as I know the Nissan GTR is the fastest production car in the world with 0 to 60 in 2.7s. Tesla with the ludicrous is only 3.0s. I could be wrong.
- modoc 10y agoIf you read the linked press release they are expecting/claiming a 2.5 second 0-60 time.
- maxerickson 10y agoIt looks like your post was the first of the nine direct replies (so far) saying more or less the same thing.
- maxerickson 10y agoThey expect the upgrade they announced today (described in more detail at the link) to bring the Model S down to 2.5 seconds.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- zeroxfe 10y agoYou're thinking of the Model X. The Model S with ludicrous is 2.5s.
- anamexis 10y agoThe article notes in the first sentence that the Model P100D can do 0 to 60 in 2.5s.
- kylec 10y agoYou are wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_car...
- serge2k 10y ago
- guelo 10y agoMotortrend tested it at 2.6 secs which ties it with a few other production cars in this wikipedia list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration#By_0.E2.80.93100.C2.A0km.2Fh_time_or_0.E2.80.9360_mph_.280.E2.80.9397.C2.A0km.2Fh.29_.283.0_seconds_or_less.29.5Bi.5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_car... "Many elements change how fast the car can accelerate to 60 mph. Tires, elevation above sea level, weight of the driver, equipment used for testing, and surface of testing track all play a big part in these times."
- nategri 10y agoTrue, however I would point out that elevation should have absolutely no impact on the performance of electric vehicles.
- etendue 10y agoAir density and temperature should both have an influence on the performance of electric vehicles, and both change with elevation.
- thescriptkiddie 10y agoMaybe on a very hot day cooling would become a factor on the track, but for a single 0-100 run air temperature should be irrelevant. Electric cars don't need to ingest hundreds of grams per second of air to make high power outputs. Unless you're referring to the impact of air density on aerodynamic drag, which should be negligible at such low speeds.
- function_seven 10y agoHome runs travel further at Coors Field. Field goals are longer at Mile High. Sprinters turn in faster times at higher altitudes. You can bet that the air density will affect vehicle acceleration tests significantly.
- 10y ago
- 6stringmerc 10y agoWait, whenever I see a performance claim with an asterisk, it kind of makes me want to read the footnote: >"- Expected value using max power mode and Motor Trend benchmark" Oh, expected value? Hm, that's a new one. And for what, a 0-60 time? I think of quickness a lot differently than a simple drag race. If a Tesla can can consistently out drag race 0-60 in actual value and then, for grins, lap the 'Ring faster than a Skyline GT-R, that's dang quick! But expected? Sorry, I want to groan at that.
- Permit 10y agoWhat do you mean by actual value? There's going to be variance in each run so I'm assuming they mean expected value as in "average" time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- FireBeyond 10y agoThe expected value in this sense means "it's not been verified, this is our projection".
- sandworm101 10y agoWhat matters to me, and some other car guys who don't own banks, is that the Tesla is capable of doing this regularly and without breaking things. Most don't realize how delicate supercars are in real life. The Ferarri Enzo famously could only do full acceleration from a stop three or four times before needing new clutch plates, even with launch control. Electric motors are just better at the standing start. That isn't so much Tesla as the nature of the technology. But do the race in cold weather, or over any distance (it doesn't go 300+miles while racing) and things would be very different. So too is the nature of the tech.
- merb 10y agoActually this is no suprise since a electric car doesn't need to convert mechanical energy back and forth. It only needs to convert the electricity to mechanical energy once, so that means that the power is near instant (way higher startup turning moment), while on a gazoline motor it needs to "warm up". Also some vehicles have multiple motors peer wheel, that is not possible with a non electric car.
- Zikes 10y agoI like this commercial for an electric smart car which demonstrates the importance of acceleration vs top speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iJJZfB7i0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iJJZfB7i0
- stcredzero 10y agoI wonder how well a special version of the Tesla Model S would do on the Top Gear track, if it reduced its battery weight to the point where it could just barely complete the course? The battery weight is its biggest problem as a track car.
- netsharc 10y agoInteresting idea, why not make the battery in segments and removable. Weight affects range too, so why not make the battery as 4 segments, and if you're just going to have a 30 minute daily commute, you could take out 3 segments and have enough range while saving weight, and the environment. If you want to go for a weekend trip you'd plug in the other segments. Obviously it'd be a bit of a nuisance and probably the segment that is always in the car will die first, because it'll have the most cycles. Unless the software controls which segments you can remove and do some wear-levelling.
- stcredzero 10y agoThe battery is already removable. I could see a Tesla battery swap machine at a track with lightweight "track batteries."
- Phlarp 10y agoyou need the larger pack size to deliver enough current to do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. Just don't ask how it would perform in a 10 mile race ;-) spoiler alert: the software throttles the top speed down aggressively as the battery heats up, which it will do very quickly while accelerating rapidly.
- mikeash 10y agoThe trouble is that battery capacity and power output are greatly related. That's why this new P100D is faster than the P90D, and why Tesla's slowest offerings are also those with the smallest batteries. For a given battery, you can extract X% of its capacity per minute without significantly damaging it, where X depends on chemistry, temperature, and what you consider to be "significant." If you add capacity, X remains the same, so the absolute power you can extract goes up. From what I hear, cooling is its biggest problem as a track car. The cooling system is sized for highway cruising, not track driving, so it overheats and limits power after a while.
- mrfusion 10y agoI wonder how much time they're saving by simply not having to shift gears? That could be a second right there.
- Godel_unicode 10y agoThe cars they're competing against largely have two clutch packs, allowing the shift to take milliseconds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_time https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_time
- mrfusion 10y agoI wonder how they can get that much power out of the battery. I'd think they'd need to use capacitors?
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y agoIt's possible to draw a lot of current from a lithium battery for very short periods, as well have pull a lot of current through a conductor for short periods. I remember doing the calculations for some of the batteries I used in RC planes and being surprised the battery was capable of delivering 4kW continuously for minutes.
- skykooler 10y agoThis is how people build very high power (5kW+) electric bikes, by using RC aircraft batteries as power sources. Very light and high power output.
- Phlarp 10y agoMulti-rotor enthusiast here-- I can confirm this statement! My 5" crafts pull up to 80 amps at full throttle and a mere 1.3ah 4 cell battery pack can generally keep up, albeit with some localized heating and voltage sag.
- kylec 10y agoI wonder where they're getting 315 miles of range from in the P100D. The P90D has 270 miles of range, or 3 miles/kWh. For 100kWh it should be 300 miles of range. At 315 miles of range the P100D is 5% more efficient than the P90D. If the upcoming 100D is also 5% more efficient than the current 90D, that car would get somewhere around 343 miles of range.
- sounds 10y agoJust a guess but perhaps the added kWh of the P100D is all battery weight, so energy density per pound goes up overall?
- lscharen 10y agoProbably because the batteries are not discharged to zero, so there is a "floor". If the floor is X kWh, then we can solve for X based on these two ranges assuming the kWh / mile consumed is the same ratio, r. r * (90 - X) = 270 r * (100 - X) = 315 Solving these two equations gives me X = 30 kWh as a fixed reserve in the battery packs assuming r = 4.5 mi / kWh.
- mikeash 10y ago4.5 miles/kWh is hugely optimistic, and a 30kWh reserve is highly unrealistic. Tesla's range numbers are based on roughly 3.3 miles/kWh (which is reasonably realistic) and the floor is maybe 5kWh. I can't explain the discrepancy, but it's definitely not just the floor. Either they've made some sort of efficiency improvement, or the difference between the two battery packs is more than 10kWh and they've just rounded off the figures.
- spectrum1234 10y agoI was hoping this was in regards to speed of production. Especially given Musk's comments recently about factory output.
- gordon_freeman 10y agoThis line interests me here: >"While the P100D Ludicrous is obviously an expensive vehicle, we want to emphasize that every sale helps pay for the smaller and much more affordable Tesla Model 3 that is in development. Without customers willing to buy the expensive Model S and X, we would be unable to fund the smaller, more affordable Model 3 development." IN other words: Hey! they are expensive but please help other people buy inexpensive cars by buying this expensive one yourself. Bit wierd!
- scott_s 10y agoI don't think that line is for the people who can afford this expensive car. Rather, I think it's for the people who want a Tesla, but are frustrated that they can't afford one. Basically, it's saying, don't get angry at us for selling this super expensive car you can't afford! We're using revenue from its sales to make the car you will be able to afford.
- randyrand 10y agoI watched an interview from 2008 where elon said the same thing about the roadster. He was implying development costs, not marginal costs. The Model S is meant to be profitable.
- nickparker 10y agoI don't get why everyone is reading this line negatively. When I read the headline my first thought was "Oh, that'll help with the cashflow problems for Model 3's ramp up." Tesla buyers make their choice on strong feature differences. The company puts very little effort into telling people what to think of their product with traditional advertising or messaging. IMO, the primary audience of press releases like this (from Tesla, not generally) are investors. Consumers will get this news two or three levels of indirection later ie some journalist compressing and regurgitating this release, or word of mouth.
- gordon_freeman 10y agoWell I can understand your view but looking objectively this message does not align the price a customer pays with the product itself (Model S P100D in this case) but rather aligns the value to a different product's prospective benefits. (Model 3 in this case which would change the world by creating a sustainable transportation.) I think a customer naturally would try to align the value of a product to the product itself. Just think: would anyone pay expensive price for an Honda Accord if Honda tells:"Buying an expensive Accord would help us fund a new version of Civic."
- frandroid 10y agoI want to know what's its range when driven at maximum speed...
- spullara 10y agoVery short as the battery would overheat.
- mikeash 10y agoYou'll achieve the official numbers at around 70MPH in mild weather. The top speed is a bit over 2x that speed, so you'd use something like 4x more energy per mile. You'd expect the range at top seed to be roughly 80 miles.
- Phlarp 10y agoThe thermal throttling will start kicking in about the time you hit 60mph.
- tomcam 10y agoModel S P100D has four doors, seats up to 5 adults plus 2 children Could not verify this. Looks like it seats 5, 2 in the front and 3 in the back. What am I missing?
- rwhendrix 10y ago2 child seats can fit in the trunk
- stevep98 10y agoOptional 2 extra rear-facing seats in the trunk, for kids
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- goshx 10y agoIt has the option to add two seats in the "trunk" space. Like so: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6f/bc/08/6fbc082806e8c94aaddeac06ae46ffae.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6f/bc/08/6fbc08280...
- tomcam 10y agoFun! Thank you.
- exclusiv 10y agoThat looks like a big liability. Imagine dad hammers it with the kids belted in a little loose. Their heads look like they could smash the rear window.
- mikeash 10y agoThere are a ton of ways to badly injure your kids by being irresponsible in any car. This doesn't really add anything new there, and the fact that they're rear-facing and permanently installed in the car should make them a fair bit safer than typical add-on child seats.
- andys627 10y agoWhile impressive - it would be more impressive in my mind to see the USA embrace walking, biking, and public transit in a meaningful way - rather than fetishize the wasteful consumerism that is "ludicrous mode".
- cowardlydragon 10y agoI find the range improvement more significant. Anyone have info as to if the power density was increased, or they just crammed in more cells into the battery? I'm hoping for a 400 mile range car in two years... for half the price. Also, does this imply that the battery costs roughly 20,000? or that's with a "rebate" for recycling your old one?
- ChuckMcM 10y agoBetter/more batteries, this is a 100kWh car, vs the P90 which is a 90kWh car. Early battery packs had the cells spaced further apart (presumably to prevent chain reaction fires) as they have gone along they have made denser battery packs. I don't know if that is because they have better inter-cell insulation, a better handle on battery discharge, or additional safety data which helps them better estimate their margins for error.
- mikeash 10y agoThe $20,000 cost does include the "rebate" for recycling the old one. I don't know that it implies much about the actual battery costs, though. I think the main implication is that Tesla isn't terribly eager to sell battery upgrades, and they'd rather use those batteries to sell new cars, but they'll do it if you make it worth their while. With limited production capacity for the new batteries for the next few months, they don't want a bunch of upgrades getting in the way of sales to new buyers.
- infinotize 10y agoWell, really, who cares how quick it is? For the average Tesla buyer the speed upgrade is mostly a novelty. Just because it can accelerate doesn't make it a hypercar, sportscar, or even sports sedan alternative. What really makes this option is the range, which is really outstanding.
- njharman 10y agoThe average Tesla buyer does not pay for ludicris mode, or probably even the 'D' submodel.
- zwily 10y agoI think you mean 'P', but yeah. The non-P models are most popular.
- mulcahey 10y agoElon wants to make electric cars not just practical, but compelling. It can't just be the best electric car, it has to be the best electric car, period. He wants to tick all the boxes: [x] Safest [x] Fastest [x] Longest range for a BEV [x] Fastest charging time, and a large network [x] Bet looking BEV [x] Most advanced commercial autonomy [x] "hell bent on being the best manufacturer in the world"
- mikehines 10y agoWake me up when I can charge the battery to 100% in 2.5 seconds anywhere.
- ryguytilidie 10y ago"I'm not interested unless this is the most innovative thing to ever happen by an order of magnitude". Okay good luck with life mate.
- nickpsecurity 10y agoA McLaren F1 w/ 2.2 second acceleration isn't considered a production car? Or the other one that replaced it in Guiness?
- qbrass 10y agoWhere did you find the McLaren F1 had a 2.2 second acceleration time? Most citations I could find were in the mid 3 second range.
- nickpsecurity 10y agoI know I read it back in 2000. It must have been a misprint given the sources I'm seeing are saying something different. Thanks for catching that! :) Btw, as a thanks, here's you one that's still pretty amazing but not production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CtHpt05gLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CtHpt05gLc