6 ms·

I have met people who not only police everyone's behavior and speech for minor deviations from political correctness, but are constantly worried about how their

by seibelj 10y ago

I have met people who not only police everyone's behavior and speech for minor deviations from political correctness, but are constantly worried about how their thoughts are not meeting their own high standards. There is a difference between saying things in a public forum and thinking them when you see something crazy on the street. I just think living that way would be totally exhausting and remove a lot of fun from life. This is another reason why activists decry "old boys' clubs" or cliques that form at school and work. Some people just want to hang out with people where saying an off color joke doesn't ruin your fucking life.

jackcosgrove 10y ago
They're no different than the nun in Game of Thrones saying "Shame!" and ringing the bell. Human archetypes don't change, but they do put on different clothes over time.
TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
Biases, prejudices and so on are subtle and take a while to unlearn. If you want to get rid of them, you essentially have to interrogate your own thoughts, for better or worse. If you're not conscious of a bias, you can't get rid of it. It doesn't suck the fun out of life.
- FreedomToCreate 10y ago
  That is assuming a bias is completely a bad thing. The human brain as evolved many heuristics to help it lower cognitive load and get things done faster. As with anything, this can have good and bad outcomes, but trying to make yourself unbiased is ridiculous and non-sensical. The fact that you want to be unbiased makes you biased for information and people you think are unbiased.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
    > As with anything, this can have good and bad outcomes Yes. Sometimes those bad outcomes are pernicious, and you may want to limit their effects. > but trying to make yourself unbiased is ridiculous and non-sensical. Why would it be so? Sure, you can't make yourself completely unbiased and lacking in prejudice. But you can try to be more aware of how you act in different situations so that biases you consider unhelpful have less of an influence. > The fact that you want to be unbiased makes you biased for information and people you think are unbiased. What?
    - johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
      >> The fact that you want to be unbiased makes you biased for information and people you think are unbiased. >What? I think what is meant is that your analysis of people is different when they say the "right" things. The wife-murdering Earth Day founder comes to mind. As Dag Hammarsköld said: It is much more difficult to care about those close to you than those far away. I have seen plenty of people that use implicit accusations as a means of getting ahead. White, "angry", old men is a term that's been popular lately - I will use that as an example. Are all old, white men "angry"? Are only the old, white men that disagree with the speaker "angry"? Are old, white men angrier than old men in general? Than old, white women? Than <colour> [menopausal|child-caring|single] women? Is there some skew in who brings their opinions to market? In who is heard? I say that the people that the most seductively claim some one is biased, are those most likely to sweep their own biases under the rug. Furthermore, I claim it is a much better goal to be consciously fair in one's dealings, than to seek some mythical state of "biased-less-ness". It seems more work, but it truly brings greater rewards to you and the people you deal with. Trying to be "unbiased" leads to exactly zero good, because it isn't how the human mind functions. I will put my own family before the stranger on the street. That doesn't mean I won't help the stranger on the street that I _see_ needs it. I need a functioning mind for that, and this college nonsense about bias is something I had to unlearn to do so, as it leads to cowardice at the hint of personal danger or embarrassment. (Unless, of course, you dont't perceive a real threat, but just some poor sod you can lecture about how morally superior you are.) [EDIT: Spelling]
      - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
        > Furthermore, I claim it is a much better goal to be consciously fair in one's dealings, than to seek some mythical state of "biased-less-ness". I'm not seeking a mythical state of being unbiased. I'd say it's more like what you say, trying to be consciously fair. I'm aware that I'm likely to be prejudiced against certain kinds of people, so I try my hardest to be fair when I deal with them.
        johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
- justinlardinois 10y ago
  I'm not sure how your parent even jumped to talking about "political correctness" in the first place, since that's not at all what the article meant by "right" thoughts and feelings. But you're spot on. It's difficult to unlearn something that you never knew you were learning in the first place, because you just take it as fact or how the world is. Confronting your own biases is uncomfortable, but it's well worth it, for it makes you a better person and helps you interact with the world in a more positive way. Besides, having your worldview shaken up and challenged is good for you; that's the best way to learn.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
    > I'm not sure how your parent even jumped to talking about "political correctness" in the first place, since that's not at all what the article meant by "right" thoughts and feelings. It's funny to me, since I do, to some extent, try to recognise my prejudices in my thoughts, but it's not been a problem for me. Whereas I actually have had problems with worrying about whether my thoughts and feelings are “right” in the sense that the OP is talking about.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Depends on who you are. Excessive interrogation of your own behaviour can be a crippling anxiety disorder.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    Sure. Lack of awareness is even worse.
    - ShroudedNight 10y ago
      By what objective standard do you make this claim? As it stands, your comment comes across as flippantly disrespectful and totally void of empathy for those who's lives are actively and continuously harmed by that sort of anxiety; that such anxiety is a perfectly acceptable externality in the process of achieving some theoretically perfect lack of bias.
      - duaneb 10y ago
        The middle ground is obviously ideal. some anxiety about your behavior is necessary to be a person anyone wants to spend time with, much less work with. I'd rather be an anxious person (as anyone know knows me will attest I am) than a person nobody wants to be around. There's no panacea for "correct level of self-awareness".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
aji 10y ago
did we read the same article?
- justinlardinois 10y ago
  I would say "not sure why you're getting downvoted," but we're on Hacker News so I do know why.
revscat 10y ago
> Some people just want to hang out with people where saying an off color joke doesn't ruin your fucking life. Is this something you feel a need to do? Given your previous mention of political correctness, I'm assuming this means you want to tell jokes about black people or Hispanics, but resent the fact that society no longer smiles on such things.
duaneb 10y ago
Have you considered they aren't out to ruin your life? Seems narcissistic to assume it's about you. Sometimes (most of the time?) you can be generically terrible instead of personally terrible.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
carapace 10y ago
C'mon man, it's not about you and your struggle to find a safe place to crack your precious racist jokes. And I feel your pain. Remember those "How many pollacks does it take..?" jokes? I used to love those. How we laughed and laughed. But seriously, the article isn't saying "so be an insensitive boor." It's just warning of the pitfall of being "neurotic" (I mean that in the commonsense, rather than clinical, sense) in the pursuit of happiness. Really it's only basic bio/psycho-physics: When you worry or stress out what are your muscles doing? They are tense, burning ATP molecules at a furious rate, working to get rid of waste products, and generally feeling uncomfortable. Now relax. Take a few calming breaths, meditate, have a scotch, whatever. Just let the tissues of your body relax, despite your problems. Make sure you do this in a place where you can reasonably expect not to be interrupted, so your body can commit to it. Lo and behold, you feel better. There's no magic, and the only mystery is why it seems so mysterious! :-) Sure the mortgage is still due and you've got no job, but you can cope with all of this much better when your system is relaxed and tuned. Really that's the difference between animals and humans: we can stop, think, and act differently. You "should" be panicking, except that reaction is no longer adaptive. Really all this article boils down to is: when you start to tense up, stop and take a breath instead. (Unless there really is a bear or something, then just run like hell.) ---- As for the challenges of telling racist jokes, the trick is to establish the safe place first. In my cubicle at work we all trust each other enough that we can drop all sorts of stinkers and we can laugh, or throw wads of paper, as apropos. But that's because we all know and trust one another, and it's never mean-spirited. We respect each other so it's safe. And fun. The issue when you try to have this sort of ease in a larger context is that there are "smiling monsters", racists who have the hate, the illness, in them, and those kind will use the safety to psychologically "knife" the vulnerable members of the group. When there is scope for this sort of thing to happen, people close themselves off to protect themselves, and become more sensitive to "violations" of the safety protocol (aka P.C.). Given the current and historical circumstances, I don't find it an undue burden to hew to the greater common denominator of kind and friendly speech when I'm in public, or even in most private spaces. Only among friends is it humane and proper to cut loose. Basic manners really.

by seibelj 10y ago

jackcosgrove 10y ago

They're no different than the nun in Game of Thrones saying "Shame!" and ringing the bell. Human archetypes don't change, but they do put on different clothes over time.

TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago

Biases, prejudices and so on are subtle and take a while to unlearn. If you want to get rid of them, you essentially have to interrogate your own thoughts, for better or worse. If you're not conscious of a bias, you can't get rid of it. It doesn't suck the fun out of life.

FreedomToCreate 10y ago
That is assuming a bias is completely a bad thing. The human brain as evolved many heuristics to help it lower cognitive load and get things done faster. As with anything, this can have good and bad outcomes, but trying to make yourself unbiased is ridiculous and non-sensical. The fact that you want to be unbiased makes you biased for information and people you think are unbiased.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
  > As with anything, this can have good and bad outcomes Yes. Sometimes those bad outcomes are pernicious, and you may want to limit their effects. > but trying to make yourself unbiased is ridiculous and non-sensical. Why would it be so? Sure, you can't make yourself completely unbiased and lacking in prejudice. But you can try to be more aware of how you act in different situations so that biases you consider unhelpful have less of an influence. > The fact that you want to be unbiased makes you biased for information and people you think are unbiased. What?
  - johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
    >> The fact that you want to be unbiased makes you biased for information and people you think are unbiased. >What? I think what is meant is that your analysis of people is different when they say the "right" things. The wife-murdering Earth Day founder comes to mind. As Dag Hammarsköld said: It is much more difficult to care about those close to you than those far away. I have seen plenty of people that use implicit accusations as a means of getting ahead. White, "angry", old men is a term that's been popular lately - I will use that as an example. Are all old, white men "angry"? Are only the old, white men that disagree with the speaker "angry"? Are old, white men angrier than old men in general? Than old, white women? Than <colour> [menopausal|child-caring|single] women? Is there some skew in who brings their opinions to market? In who is heard? I say that the people that the most seductively claim some one is biased, are those most likely to sweep their own biases under the rug. Furthermore, I claim it is a much better goal to be consciously fair in one's dealings, than to seek some mythical state of "biased-less-ness". It seems more work, but it truly brings greater rewards to you and the people you deal with. Trying to be "unbiased" leads to exactly zero good, because it isn't how the human mind functions. I will put my own family before the stranger on the street. That doesn't mean I won't help the stranger on the street that I _see_ needs it. I need a functioning mind for that, and this college nonsense about bias is something I had to unlearn to do so, as it leads to cowardice at the hint of personal danger or embarrassment. (Unless, of course, you dont't perceive a real threat, but just some poor sod you can lecture about how morally superior you are.) [EDIT: Spelling]
    - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
      > Furthermore, I claim it is a much better goal to be consciously fair in one's dealings, than to seek some mythical state of "biased-less-ness". I'm not seeking a mythical state of being unbiased. I'd say it's more like what you say, trying to be consciously fair. I'm aware that I'm likely to be prejudiced against certain kinds of people, so I try my hardest to be fair when I deal with them.
      - johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
justinlardinois 10y ago
I'm not sure how your parent even jumped to talking about "political correctness" in the first place, since that's not at all what the article meant by "right" thoughts and feelings. But you're spot on. It's difficult to unlearn something that you never knew you were learning in the first place, because you just take it as fact or how the world is. Confronting your own biases is uncomfortable, but it's well worth it, for it makes you a better person and helps you interact with the world in a more positive way. Besides, having your worldview shaken up and challenged is good for you; that's the best way to learn.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
  > I'm not sure how your parent even jumped to talking about "political correctness" in the first place, since that's not at all what the article meant by "right" thoughts and feelings. It's funny to me, since I do, to some extent, try to recognise my prejudices in my thoughts, but it's not been a problem for me. Whereas I actually have had problems with worrying about whether my thoughts and feelings are “right” in the sense that the OP is talking about.
pjc50 10y ago
Depends on who you are. Excessive interrogation of your own behaviour can be a crippling anxiety disorder.
- duaneb 10y ago
  Sure. Lack of awareness is even worse.
  - ShroudedNight 10y ago
    By what objective standard do you make this claim? As it stands, your comment comes across as flippantly disrespectful and totally void of empathy for those who's lives are actively and continuously harmed by that sort of anxiety; that such anxiety is a perfectly acceptable externality in the process of achieving some theoretically perfect lack of bias.
    - duaneb 10y ago
      The middle ground is obviously ideal. some anxiety about your behavior is necessary to be a person anyone wants to spend time with, much less work with. I'd rather be an anxious person (as anyone know knows me will attest I am) than a person nobody wants to be around. There's no panacea for "correct level of self-awareness".
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

aji 10y ago

did we read the same article?

justinlardinois 10y ago
I would say "not sure why you're getting downvoted," but we're on Hacker News so I do know why.

revscat 10y ago

> Some people just want to hang out with people where saying an off color joke doesn't ruin your fucking life. Is this something you feel a need to do? Given your previous mention of political correctness, I'm assuming this means you want to tell jokes about black people or Hispanics, but resent the fact that society no longer smiles on such things.

duaneb 10y ago

Have you considered they aren't out to ruin your life? Seems narcissistic to assume it's about you. Sometimes (most of the time?) you can be generically terrible instead of personally terrible.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

carapace 10y ago

C'mon man, it's not about you and your struggle to find a safe place to crack your precious racist jokes. And I feel your pain. Remember those "How many pollacks does it take..?" jokes? I used to love those. How we laughed and laughed. But seriously, the article isn't saying "so be an insensitive boor." It's just warning of the pitfall of being "neurotic" (I mean that in the commonsense, rather than clinical, sense) in the pursuit of happiness. Really it's only basic bio/psycho-physics: When you worry or stress out what are your muscles doing? They are tense, burning ATP molecules at a furious rate, working to get rid of waste products, and generally feeling uncomfortable. Now relax. Take a few calming breaths, meditate, have a scotch, whatever. Just let the tissues of your body relax, despite your problems. Make sure you do this in a place where you can reasonably expect not to be interrupted, so your body can commit to it. Lo and behold, you feel better. There's no magic, and the only mystery is why it seems so mysterious! :-) Sure the mortgage is still due and you've got no job, but you can cope with all of this much better when your system is relaxed and tuned. Really that's the difference between animals and humans: we can stop, think, and act differently. You "should" be panicking, except that reaction is no longer adaptive. Really all this article boils down to is: when you start to tense up, stop and take a breath instead. (Unless there really is a bear or something, then just run like hell.) ---- As for the challenges of telling racist jokes, the trick is to establish the safe place first. In my cubicle at work we all trust each other enough that we can drop all sorts of stinkers and we can laugh, or throw wads of paper, as apropos. But that's because we all know and trust one another, and it's never mean-spirited. We respect each other so it's safe. And fun. The issue when you try to have this sort of ease in a larger context is that there are "smiling monsters", racists who have the hate, the illness, in them, and those kind will use the safety to psychologically "knife" the vulnerable members of the group. When there is scope for this sort of thing to happen, people close themselves off to protect themselves, and become more sensitive to "violations" of the safety protocol (aka P.C.). Given the current and historical circumstances, I don't find it an undue burden to hew to the greater common denominator of kind and friendly speech when I'm in public, or even in most private spaces. Only among friends is it humane and proper to cut loose. Basic manners really.