7 ms·

But because I am afraid what neighbors, school, CPS would do. Speaking of "perceived but unreal risk"....

by harryh 10y ago

rdtsc 10y ago
One would think, but seeing what happened to my co-worker, I don't want to go through that.
- harryh 10y ago
  A couple of very slightly uncomfortable conversations seems like a small price to pay for raising your kids in the manner you deem appropriate.
  - softawre 10y ago
    And you are free to raise your kids how you wish.
  - fweespeech 10y ago
    http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/11/11-year-old-boy-played-in-his-yard-cps-t http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/11/11-year-old-boy-played-in-... > One afternoon this past April, a Florida mom and dad I'll call Cindy and Fred could not get home in time to let their 11-year-old son into the house. The boy didn't have a key, so he played basketball in the yard. He was alone for 90 minutes. A neighbor called the cops, and when the parents arrived—having been delayed by traffic and rain—they were arrested for negligence. > "My older one was the so-called 'victim,'" she said during a phone interview. But since she and her husband were charged with felony neglect, the younger boy had to be removed from the home, too. If you are not liked by your neighbors, it seems like a very real risk.
    - harryh 10y ago
      You know how if you talk to an overprotective parent about how it's really ok to let their kids wander around outside on their own a little they're always at the ready with a link to a news story about something horrible happening? And you know how that news story is always anecdote and not data? That's pretty much what you just did.
      - mcherm 10y ago
        Sort of. There are two claims someone might make. "X is common, and it poses a meaningful risk", or "X exists, and it poses a non-zero risk". Anecdotes do not help much with the first claim, but they do help with the second. So perhaps we can agree that child abductions CAN happen, and that CPS overreach DOES occur. Then we can review the real risks of both. I've seen data on the real risk of child abductions. I have never seen data on the real risks of CPS overreach. (And it would be difficult to define "overreach".) Does anyone know of any such data? (Because also, in the complete absence of actual data, anecdotes are better than nothing.)
        harryh 10y ago
        And in the absence of meaningful data BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY! said the overprotective parent that wouldn't let their 12 year old kid bike 5 blocks to school. Seriously, once you see the parallels between how parents afraid of criminals and parents afraid of CPS talk about the risks you can't un-see them.
        JamesBarney 10y ago
        Number of kids abducted by strangers per year 115. Number of kids investigated by the CPS 3.2 million. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/196467.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/196467.pdf
        harryh 10y ago
        Your second data point is not a relevant comparison. The number you need is the number of people incorrectly taken from their parents by CPS.
        laughinghan 10y ago
        Of course it's relevant. I am certain that I am far from alone in expecting CPS to incorrectly take children more than 115/3.2 million = 0.0036% of the time, which means that even without knowing the exact percentage of the time that CPS is mistaken, I was convinced by those numbers that a random kid has a higher chance of being mistakenly taken by CPS than abducted by a stranger. Are you telling me that even though you, like me, don't know the exact percentage of the time that CPS is mistaken, you expect it to be less that 0.0036%?
    - borvo 10y ago
      The problem here is the police, not the neighbors. Why were they arrested? Did they really break the law? If not, then how were these police trained? If they did break the law, then who is making these nonsense laws?
    - tedunangst 10y ago
      But, but, but... http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Missing-Child-King-of-Prussia-Mall-Montgomery-County--374202791.html http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Missing-Child-King... > The suspect then held the boy as the mom took a phone call, according to investigators. The suspect then walked out of the mall cradling the boy in her arms, police said. If you ever answer your phone, it seems like a very real risk somebody will snatch up your baby.
  - Someone1234 10y ago
    And if CPS agrees about the manner you deem appropriate?
jkeel 10y ago
Except I'm not sure this is an "unreal" risk. I was telling someone a story today about how I was outside with my daughter who was 10 at the time. We live in cul-de-sac and 2 houses down there is a neighborhood pool but across the street (very non-busy street). The neighborhood has some unused wood from building a fence and sent an email out saying that people could take some. My daughter said she wanted to take a wagon and go get some to make a project. I encouraged her to go alone but I'd watch from the front of the house, but next to the road (I'm literally 2 houses away). I actually thought it would be good for her to do it alone (with me watching). I watch as she looks both ways before crossing and being very careful of her surroundings, etc. Then all of a sudden the teenage boy (about 15-16 years old) runs out of the house over to her and starts talking to her. The mother runs out soon after. I walk over there and they are talking to her and looking concerned at me. I walk up and the mom is yelling at me about letting my daughter outside alone. I explain to her that I was here the whole time watching. She then says that some stranger could have come up to her in which I reply, "I know. It's a good thing I was here." My daughter said she was afraid to go in the front yard after that because she said the creepy neighbors are probably watching her. Thank goodness they moved away a few months ago.
- Declanomous 10y ago
  That level of concern is a bit ridiculous for a 10 year old. I was riding my bike all over by myself at that point. Crossing the street with indirect supervision is something I'd trust a 6 year old with. Now maybe I had a charmed childhood, but I'm in my mid twenties, so it's not like I'm talking about growing up in the 50's here. My parents are older though, they did grow up in the 50s, and I I know they view independence as an important individual trait. I'm sure overprotective parents are not a recent phenomenon. One of my (younger) brother's friends was accompanied to and from school by his mother well in to High School. Walk, drive, riding a bike, you name it, she was there. My mom asked her about this once, and she was like "Oh, [Declanomous's Mother], you have [Declanomous] and [Son #2]. I just have [her son]. I don't know what I'd do if anything happened to him." My mom thought this point was kind of ridiculous, because it's not as if one child is a backup for another child. She just let my brother and I run around because she wanted us to learn to do things on our own. Personally I think the current environment vis-a-vis child rearing reflects a larger trend towards fear in overall society. Part of this is a result of a larger focus on danger in childhood development, but I feel like a whole culture around existential fear really developed after 9/11. It seems like we started viewing the entire world as dangerous, rather than being ripe for exploration. I feel like this is really noticeable when watching media from different eras. Popular TV shows before 9/11 were Seinfeld, Friends, and Fraiser. After 9/11 shows like CSI, 24, etc. became very popular. I could be completely wrong. I know shows like Law and Order and ER were very popular before 9/11. I recall them being less existentially terrifying though. This could just be because I was very young at the time though.
dangoor 10y ago
It would be interesting to see data on stuff like number of random calls to CPS vs. number of kids kidnapped by strangers. They're probably both small risks, possibly with similar incidence. I'm also curious if calls to CPS, etc. are more common today because suburban dwellers know their neighbors less than in the past?
paulrpotts 10y ago
It's not an unreal risk. CPS really does have the power to take your children away. A CPS investigation is not a pleasant thing to go through. Imagine having to sit through a serious conversation in which every aspect of your home life is inspected. For example, a (former) family friend reported that in our 100-year-old house, there were some ants in our kitchen. Not thousands of ants, but a handful. Imagine having to defend this as if it was a serious threat to your children's safety by someone who could legally remove them.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > CPS really does have the power to take your children away. Strictly speaking, AFAIK, in most jurisdictions they actually don't have the power to do so, even temporarily, on their own judgement -- they either need a warrant issued by a judge on a finding of probable cause, or law enforcement action in an emergency situation where a warrant isn't practical. So, really, the police and/or courts have the power to take your children away.

But because I am afraid what neighbors, school, CPS would do. Speaking of "perceived but unreal risk"....

by harryh 10y ago

But because I am afraid what neighbors, school, CPS would do. Speaking of "perceived but unreal risk"....

rdtsc 10y ago

One would think, but seeing what happened to my co-worker, I don't want to go through that.

harryh 10y ago
A couple of very slightly uncomfortable conversations seems like a small price to pay for raising your kids in the manner you deem appropriate.
- softawre 10y ago
  And you are free to raise your kids how you wish.
- fweespeech 10y ago
  http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/11/11-year-old-boy-played-in-his-yard-cps-t http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/11/11-year-old-boy-played-in-... > One afternoon this past April, a Florida mom and dad I'll call Cindy and Fred could not get home in time to let their 11-year-old son into the house. The boy didn't have a key, so he played basketball in the yard. He was alone for 90 minutes. A neighbor called the cops, and when the parents arrived—having been delayed by traffic and rain—they were arrested for negligence. > "My older one was the so-called 'victim,'" she said during a phone interview. But since she and her husband were charged with felony neglect, the younger boy had to be removed from the home, too. If you are not liked by your neighbors, it seems like a very real risk.
  - harryh 10y ago
    You know how if you talk to an overprotective parent about how it's really ok to let their kids wander around outside on their own a little they're always at the ready with a link to a news story about something horrible happening? And you know how that news story is always anecdote and not data? That's pretty much what you just did.
    - mcherm 10y ago
      Sort of. There are two claims someone might make. "X is common, and it poses a meaningful risk", or "X exists, and it poses a non-zero risk". Anecdotes do not help much with the first claim, but they do help with the second. So perhaps we can agree that child abductions CAN happen, and that CPS overreach DOES occur. Then we can review the real risks of both. I've seen data on the real risk of child abductions. I have never seen data on the real risks of CPS overreach. (And it would be difficult to define "overreach".) Does anyone know of any such data? (Because also, in the complete absence of actual data, anecdotes are better than nothing.)
      - harryh 10y ago
        And in the absence of meaningful data BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY! said the overprotective parent that wouldn't let their 12 year old kid bike 5 blocks to school. Seriously, once you see the parallels between how parents afraid of criminals and parents afraid of CPS talk about the risks you can't un-see them.
        JamesBarney 10y ago
        Number of kids abducted by strangers per year 115. Number of kids investigated by the CPS 3.2 million. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/196467.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/196467.pdf
        harryh 10y ago
        Your second data point is not a relevant comparison. The number you need is the number of people incorrectly taken from their parents by CPS.
        laughinghan 10y ago
        Of course it's relevant. I am certain that I am far from alone in expecting CPS to incorrectly take children more than 115/3.2 million = 0.0036% of the time, which means that even without knowing the exact percentage of the time that CPS is mistaken, I was convinced by those numbers that a random kid has a higher chance of being mistakenly taken by CPS than abducted by a stranger. Are you telling me that even though you, like me, don't know the exact percentage of the time that CPS is mistaken, you expect it to be less that 0.0036%?
  - borvo 10y ago
    The problem here is the police, not the neighbors. Why were they arrested? Did they really break the law? If not, then how were these police trained? If they did break the law, then who is making these nonsense laws?
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    But, but, but... http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Missing-Child-King-of-Prussia-Mall-Montgomery-County--374202791.html http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Missing-Child-King... > The suspect then held the boy as the mom took a phone call, according to investigators. The suspect then walked out of the mall cradling the boy in her arms, police said. If you ever answer your phone, it seems like a very real risk somebody will snatch up your baby.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  And if CPS agrees about the manner you deem appropriate?

jkeel 10y ago

Except I'm not sure this is an "unreal" risk. I was telling someone a story today about how I was outside with my daughter who was 10 at the time. We live in cul-de-sac and 2 houses down there is a neighborhood pool but across the street (very non-busy street). The neighborhood has some unused wood from building a fence and sent an email out saying that people could take some. My daughter said she wanted to take a wagon and go get some to make a project. I encouraged her to go alone but I'd watch from the front of the house, but next to the road (I'm literally 2 houses away). I actually thought it would be good for her to do it alone (with me watching). I watch as she looks both ways before crossing and being very careful of her surroundings, etc. Then all of a sudden the teenage boy (about 15-16 years old) runs out of the house over to her and starts talking to her. The mother runs out soon after. I walk over there and they are talking to her and looking concerned at me. I walk up and the mom is yelling at me about letting my daughter outside alone. I explain to her that I was here the whole time watching. She then says that some stranger could have come up to her in which I reply, "I know. It's a good thing I was here." My daughter said she was afraid to go in the front yard after that because she said the creepy neighbors are probably watching her. Thank goodness they moved away a few months ago.

Declanomous 10y ago
That level of concern is a bit ridiculous for a 10 year old. I was riding my bike all over by myself at that point. Crossing the street with indirect supervision is something I'd trust a 6 year old with. Now maybe I had a charmed childhood, but I'm in my mid twenties, so it's not like I'm talking about growing up in the 50's here. My parents are older though, they did grow up in the 50s, and I I know they view independence as an important individual trait. I'm sure overprotective parents are not a recent phenomenon. One of my (younger) brother's friends was accompanied to and from school by his mother well in to High School. Walk, drive, riding a bike, you name it, she was there. My mom asked her about this once, and she was like "Oh, [Declanomous's Mother], you have [Declanomous] and [Son #2]. I just have [her son]. I don't know what I'd do if anything happened to him." My mom thought this point was kind of ridiculous, because it's not as if one child is a backup for another child. She just let my brother and I run around because she wanted us to learn to do things on our own. Personally I think the current environment vis-a-vis child rearing reflects a larger trend towards fear in overall society. Part of this is a result of a larger focus on danger in childhood development, but I feel like a whole culture around existential fear really developed after 9/11. It seems like we started viewing the entire world as dangerous, rather than being ripe for exploration. I feel like this is really noticeable when watching media from different eras. Popular TV shows before 9/11 were Seinfeld, Friends, and Fraiser. After 9/11 shows like CSI, 24, etc. became very popular. I could be completely wrong. I know shows like Law and Order and ER were very popular before 9/11. I recall them being less existentially terrifying though. This could just be because I was very young at the time though.

dangoor 10y ago

It would be interesting to see data on stuff like number of random calls to CPS vs. number of kids kidnapped by strangers. They're probably both small risks, possibly with similar incidence. I'm also curious if calls to CPS, etc. are more common today because suburban dwellers know their neighbors less than in the past?

paulrpotts 10y ago

It's not an unreal risk. CPS really does have the power to take your children away. A CPS investigation is not a pleasant thing to go through. Imagine having to sit through a serious conversation in which every aspect of your home life is inspected. For example, a (former) family friend reported that in our 100-year-old house, there were some ants in our kitchen. Not thousands of ants, but a handful. Imagine having to defend this as if it was a serious threat to your children's safety by someone who could legally remove them.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> CPS really does have the power to take your children away. Strictly speaking, AFAIK, in most jurisdictions they actually don't have the power to do so, even temporarily, on their own judgement -- they either need a warrant issued by a judge on a finding of probable cause, or law enforcement action in an emergency situation where a warrant isn't practical. So, really, the police and/or courts have the power to take your children away.