4 ms·

these are children we're talking about. you're endorsing drugging children.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Yes, so what? My son had a bladder infection, and I certainly endorsed the use of drugs to treat that. If there is a real and identifiable condition interfering with a child's quality of life for which there is concrete reason to think that a drug is an effective and remedy for which the risk of other side effects is mild compared to the expected benefit, why shouldn't responsible adults endorse drugging children in that circumstance?
- metaphorm 10y ago
  bladder infection is an infection by a microbial disease. it's a pathogen caused by another organism that shouldn't be present in a healthy body. what exactly is ADHD? what is being treated, anyway? this is medicating for "normality", which is another way of saying our society is defining and enforcing (with mind-altering drugs) a very narrow band of acceptable personalities and behavioral responses to environmental situations. if chemical enforcement of "normal" is ok with you, then go ahead and drug your kids.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    > this is medicating for "normality" No, it really isn't. There's nothing normal about having ADHD. It's debilitating: it makes it very hard to hold a job. It makes it nearly impossible to plan for the future. Imagine having a horn blowing in your ear at a random interval between a second and an hour, completely disrupting your train of thought, as if you just did a complete mental context switch. How big of a mental stack could you create, knowing that the horn will blow at any moment, completely destroying it. Your friends get tired of talking to you, because you constantly lose track of what they're saying; you are constantly looking around for the source of that damned horn. You try and read a book, but then the horn blows and you forget where on the page you were. You struggle on, and find that you can get back on track more quickly if you leave you finger where you were. The horn blows, and you spend a few moments lamenting that damned horn, and have to re-read the last few sentences to pick the context back up. The horn blows. You try and walk down a hallway and through a door. The horn blows, disorientating you a bit, causing you to hit the doorframe on your way through. You can't write code. You can't hold deep conversations. You can't read deep, technical books. You can't handle the college workload. You can't put together a plan for your future. All because of that f*cking horn. But it's OK, everyone who doesn't hear the horn tells you - you're just living in the wrong time in history. You'd make a great hunter. If someone offered you some earmuffs quiet that horn, would you take them? Would you then advocate them for others who have that same horn blaring in their ears? I would. I do.
    - thwarted 10y ago
      This description is right out of Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron, written in the context of opposite effect of handicapping those of extreme skill/means rather than the debilitating effect of those trying to live a "normal" life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
      - falcolas 10y ago
        Yes, it is. However the effects of the sounds on cognition as described in that short story are remarkably spot on for how ADHD affects my ability to concentrate and think. He even got the ability to "ignore the sound" down pat - it can be done if something novel really grabs hold of your attention... and that it doesn't last.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    People aren't treating ADHD to make children "normal". They're treating ADHD to reduce the risk of accidental death; homicide; suicide; and drug or alcohol dependency.
  - wvenable 10y ago
    Perhaps you have a point. But in most cases when medication is prescribed it's because the condition is debilitating. I can speak from experience that when a child is incapable of sustained play, overwhelmed by the interactions, and has trouble with going to the bathroom that we aren't talking about a narrow band of acceptability. Your comment, like so many others here, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the real problem. I've seen the absolutely amazing affects of non-stimulant ADD medication and it's not chemical enforcement of normal, it is treatment of a disease.
MichaelGG 10y ago
As a parent it's very hard. Our governess mentioned our one daughter was having difficulty focusing. So I did a trial with just 5mg/day Ritalin. Week on, week off. The difference is huge. It's a really hard call. I'm worried about the effects long term, but she does so much better with it. If she was in a school instead of with a private tutor, I'm guessing she'd be way worse off. FWIW I used to think giving meds to an 8yr old was horrible. It's not so clear anymore.
- basch 10y ago
  school is so boring we give children focus drugs and are surprised when they are able to focus? and we dont talk about fixing school, because the short term pragmatic decision is to adapt the brilliant kid to the shitty environment, instead of the inverse.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    I don't think her school is too boring. It's her and her sister and a full time teacher just for them. They have near unlimited flexibility in scheduling and approaching things. She goes on about how fun it is; they both love it. It's just she can't seem to focus on any task without the meds. She really likes taking them, hence making me more conflicted.
    - basch 10y ago
      that is because the task is boring, if it was engaging kids would focus on their own. its not more enthralling than the thing her attention diverts to. with screens, we have trained kids to always have ever changing dopamine bursts and excitement. school hasnt adapted to the chaoticness of our desires (and maybe ti shouldnt, maybe focus is a skill we should hone, instead of obtain through cheating.)
falcolas 10y ago
> you're endorsing drugging children. Not just any children, I'm endorsing providing drugs to children who need those drugs. Just as I would endorse giving a child with a headache an appropriate amount of acetaminophen or ibuprofen. Or steroids to a child with severe MS. Or opioids to a child with chronic pain. Just because the defect is in the brain and not the muscles or nerves or elsewhere doesn't make it less of a treatable defect. Or less worthy of treatment.
DanBC 10y ago
Do you say that about chemotherapy? Or insulin for T1 diabetic children?

Yes, so what? My son had a bladder infection, and I certainly endorsed the use of drugs to treat that. If there is a real and identifiable condition interfering with a child's quality of life for which there is concrete reason to think that a drug is an effective and remedy for which the risk of other side effects is mild compared to the expected benefit, why shouldn't responsible adults endorse drugging children in that circumstance?

metaphorm 10y ago
bladder infection is an infection by a microbial disease. it's a pathogen caused by another organism that shouldn't be present in a healthy body. what exactly is ADHD? what is being treated, anyway? this is medicating for "normality", which is another way of saying our society is defining and enforcing (with mind-altering drugs) a very narrow band of acceptable personalities and behavioral responses to environmental situations. if chemical enforcement of "normal" is ok with you, then go ahead and drug your kids.
- falcolas 10y ago
  > this is medicating for "normality" No, it really isn't. There's nothing normal about having ADHD. It's debilitating: it makes it very hard to hold a job. It makes it nearly impossible to plan for the future. Imagine having a horn blowing in your ear at a random interval between a second and an hour, completely disrupting your train of thought, as if you just did a complete mental context switch. How big of a mental stack could you create, knowing that the horn will blow at any moment, completely destroying it. Your friends get tired of talking to you, because you constantly lose track of what they're saying; you are constantly looking around for the source of that damned horn. You try and read a book, but then the horn blows and you forget where on the page you were. You struggle on, and find that you can get back on track more quickly if you leave you finger where you were. The horn blows, and you spend a few moments lamenting that damned horn, and have to re-read the last few sentences to pick the context back up. The horn blows. You try and walk down a hallway and through a door. The horn blows, disorientating you a bit, causing you to hit the doorframe on your way through. You can't write code. You can't hold deep conversations. You can't read deep, technical books. You can't handle the college workload. You can't put together a plan for your future. All because of that f*cking horn. But it's OK, everyone who doesn't hear the horn tells you - you're just living in the wrong time in history. You'd make a great hunter. If someone offered you some earmuffs quiet that horn, would you take them? Would you then advocate them for others who have that same horn blaring in their ears? I would. I do.
  - thwarted 10y ago
    This description is right out of Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron, written in the context of opposite effect of handicapping those of extreme skill/means rather than the debilitating effect of those trying to live a "normal" life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
    - falcolas 10y ago
      Yes, it is. However the effects of the sounds on cognition as described in that short story are remarkably spot on for how ADHD affects my ability to concentrate and think. He even got the ability to "ignore the sound" down pat - it can be done if something novel really grabs hold of your attention... and that it doesn't last.
- DanBC 10y ago
  People aren't treating ADHD to make children "normal". They're treating ADHD to reduce the risk of accidental death; homicide; suicide; and drug or alcohol dependency.
- wvenable 10y ago
  Perhaps you have a point. But in most cases when medication is prescribed it's because the condition is debilitating. I can speak from experience that when a child is incapable of sustained play, overwhelmed by the interactions, and has trouble with going to the bathroom that we aren't talking about a narrow band of acceptability. Your comment, like so many others here, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the real problem. I've seen the absolutely amazing affects of non-stimulant ADD medication and it's not chemical enforcement of normal, it is treatment of a disease.

MichaelGG 10y ago

As a parent it's very hard. Our governess mentioned our one daughter was having difficulty focusing. So I did a trial with just 5mg/day Ritalin. Week on, week off. The difference is huge. It's a really hard call. I'm worried about the effects long term, but she does so much better with it. If she was in a school instead of with a private tutor, I'm guessing she'd be way worse off. FWIW I used to think giving meds to an 8yr old was horrible. It's not so clear anymore.

basch 10y ago
school is so boring we give children focus drugs and are surprised when they are able to focus? and we dont talk about fixing school, because the short term pragmatic decision is to adapt the brilliant kid to the shitty environment, instead of the inverse.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  I don't think her school is too boring. It's her and her sister and a full time teacher just for them. They have near unlimited flexibility in scheduling and approaching things. She goes on about how fun it is; they both love it. It's just she can't seem to focus on any task without the meds. She really likes taking them, hence making me more conflicted.
  - basch 10y ago
    that is because the task is boring, if it was engaging kids would focus on their own. its not more enthralling than the thing her attention diverts to. with screens, we have trained kids to always have ever changing dopamine bursts and excitement. school hasnt adapted to the chaoticness of our desires (and maybe ti shouldnt, maybe focus is a skill we should hone, instead of obtain through cheating.)

falcolas 10y ago

> you're endorsing drugging children. Not just any children, I'm endorsing providing drugs to children who need those drugs. Just as I would endorse giving a child with a headache an appropriate amount of acetaminophen or ibuprofen. Or steroids to a child with severe MS. Or opioids to a child with chronic pain. Just because the defect is in the brain and not the muscles or nerves or elsewhere doesn't make it less of a treatable defect. Or less worthy of treatment.

DanBC 10y ago

Do you say that about chemotherapy? Or insulin for T1 diabetic children?