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> And if we're not willing to change that environment--and I don't think we are--then we should medicate the kids so at least the experience is tolerable and th

> And if we're not willing to change that environment--and I don't think we are--then we should medicate the kids so at least the experience is tolerable and they can have some success with it And as a result traditional response has been amphetamine-salts for children as you say. But I completely disagree that this is something we should do. For one I think we don't have good enough science to know how potentially dangerous or helpful ADHD drugs really are. Is it going to help them adjust later, or will it be harder? Are they going to be dependent on amphetamines their whole life? Evaluation of drugs which are primarily targeted at emotional and behavioral problems is difficult enough in neutral conditions, since it is hard to control/evaluate/quantify results. Yet the conditions we are dealing with are totally not-neutral. Basically big pharmaceutical companies fund lots of research - if the research doesn't support their product they can shelve it and fund some other studies until they have research which does. It's an awful field with too much money and lots of dishonest science. Secondly, using medications to treat ADHD (because that makes money for their producers) is as you pointed out making us avoid the cultural / environmental problems which cause this issue. But I disagree that this is inherently from the 7-hour school day as you point out. Kids went to school for 7-hours 50 years ago as well, but ADHD diagnosis and medication use has been constantly increasing. [0] A large factor to this is the increasing amount of stimulation that kids today are actively exposed to that they weren't in the past (I can't remember references of the top of my head, I'll try and find one though). Basically if you grow-up with 4-6 hours of TV or video games per day, yeah it's hard to sit down and read a book. Obvious right? And your recommendation is really to give amphetamines to 7-year olds? Rather than limit consumption of mediums that are inappropriately over-stimulating for large durations? [0] http://images.slideplayer.com/18/5690061/slides/slide_2.jpg http://images.slideplayer.com/18/5690061/slides/slide_2.jpg

daeken 10y ago
> traditional response has been amphetamine-salts Not exclusively. Methylphenidate (Ritalin and friends) is generally the first-line drug in the US at least, due to milder side effects and a lower potential for abuse.
- soylentcola 10y ago
  Always found this odd because at least for me, methylphenidate (and its surprise result of mixing with alcohol, ethylphenidate) made me feel more of a "buzz" or desire to take more compared to the typical amp-salts. I actually had my doc switch me over because I don't like the idea of any more side effects or anything that might lead me to abuse than absolutely necessary. I guess a lot is down to individual neurochemistry but I felt that mpd was almost like cocaine whereas the generic Adderall I'm on now just makes me able to focus.
rayiner 10y ago
> Kids went to school for 7-hours 50 years ago as well, but ADHD diagnosis have been constantly increasing. There was much less emphasis on doing well in school back then. Most people didn't go to college and didn't need to get the grades necessary to do so. They could have a solid middle class life without even a high school diploma. Not being "cut out for college" wasn't the end of the world.
scottmf 10y ago
>we don't have good enough science to know how potentially dangerous or helpful ADHD drugs really are. We have nearly a century of usage which suggests these drugs are incredibly safe. We medicate a lot of problems which are caused/worsened by society. We need a solution: Either we fundamentally restructure society, or we medicate. Since we're not fundamentally restructuring society any time soon, medication is our best option and we have a lot of data suggesting stimulant medications in these doses are pretty damn safe—and certainly outweigh the negatives of not medicating (failing school, abusing drugs, other mental illness). The real epidemic here is the pejorative use of the word "medication". The distrust of treatment is always based on ignorance and appeals to nature, tradition, etc.
- forgotpwtomain 10y ago
  > We have nearly a century of usage which suggests these drugs are incredibly safe. Non-industry funded long term study (30+ years) citation needed. > We medicate a lot of problems which are caused/worsened by society. We need a solution: Either we fundamentally restructure society, or we medicate. I think this is a false dichotomy, not backed by any credible research and is a clever way for the pharmacy industry to sell drugs instead of society expending effort on alternative solutions. edit (To clarify): Specifically you are jumping from "lot of problems which are caused/worsened by society" to a polarized choice of "medicate" or "fundamentally restructure society". But it should be clear that there is a whole field of available approaches which aren't "fundamental restructuring" which can attempt to alleviate such problems and unless research has enumerated and depleted all other available gradual options, this again, is a bogus dichotomy.
  - scottmf 10y ago
    We have real data which heavily backs the case for medicating. You have emotion and conjecture. >Non-industry funded long term study (30+ years) citation needed. What do you want? You're suggesting all these studies are funded by pharma cos and the scientists are falsifying data? If you're not going to believe any of the data and stick to your own emotions on the subject there's no point discussing this. Until you have anything besides personal feelings and unfounded beliefs we should obviously stick to what we're doing. Anything else is dangerous and unscientific.
panglott 10y ago
One thing that has definitely changed is the level of academic expectations for young kids. Working with educators, it's apparent how much expectations have changed even in the last 10-15 years. Things that children were once expected to know in 1st grade are now expectations of children in kindergarten or even pre-kindergarten. Kindergarten is the new 1st grade, in terms of reading, and that means children have to spend more time sitting and copying letters and words. In kindergarten, some children will be a year older than other children, and a year is a massive amount of time, developmentally speaking, when you're talking about 5-year-olds. The biggest risk factors for an ADHD diagnosis are being in the youngest quartile of your grade and being male. Neither of those are actual medical problems.
- forgotpwtomain 10y ago
  > One thing that has definitely changed is the level of academic expectations for young kids. Working with educators, it's apparent how much expectations have changed even in the last 10-15 years. Really, I think this needs a reference/citation? We didn't read a classic English book until 7th or 8th grade when I was in school. In contrast to say my parents education in Russia where they read Pushkin in ~2nd grade. Math education was several years behind what they were taught as well.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    Pushkin wrote quite a lot of child books, easily accessible for 2nd grade. It's not like Tolstoi or Dostoyevsky (those had to wait until grade 10).
    - forgotpwtomain 10y ago
      There are also great children's authors in English - A.A. Milne, Oscar Wilde's stories, Mark Twain, Kipling, Baum (Wizard of Oz). All of these could be accessible at various stages within grades 2-5.
      - atemerev 10y ago

daeken 10y ago

> traditional response has been amphetamine-salts Not exclusively. Methylphenidate (Ritalin and friends) is generally the first-line drug in the US at least, due to milder side effects and a lower potential for abuse.

soylentcola 10y ago
Always found this odd because at least for me, methylphenidate (and its surprise result of mixing with alcohol, ethylphenidate) made me feel more of a "buzz" or desire to take more compared to the typical amp-salts. I actually had my doc switch me over because I don't like the idea of any more side effects or anything that might lead me to abuse than absolutely necessary. I guess a lot is down to individual neurochemistry but I felt that mpd was almost like cocaine whereas the generic Adderall I'm on now just makes me able to focus.

rayiner 10y ago

> Kids went to school for 7-hours 50 years ago as well, but ADHD diagnosis have been constantly increasing. There was much less emphasis on doing well in school back then. Most people didn't go to college and didn't need to get the grades necessary to do so. They could have a solid middle class life without even a high school diploma. Not being "cut out for college" wasn't the end of the world.

scottmf 10y ago

>we don't have good enough science to know how potentially dangerous or helpful ADHD drugs really are. We have nearly a century of usage which suggests these drugs are incredibly safe. We medicate a lot of problems which are caused/worsened by society. We need a solution: Either we fundamentally restructure society, or we medicate. Since we're not fundamentally restructuring society any time soon, medication is our best option and we have a lot of data suggesting stimulant medications in these doses are pretty damn safe—and certainly outweigh the negatives of not medicating (failing school, abusing drugs, other mental illness). The real epidemic here is the pejorative use of the word "medication". The distrust of treatment is always based on ignorance and appeals to nature, tradition, etc.

forgotpwtomain 10y ago
> We have nearly a century of usage which suggests these drugs are incredibly safe. Non-industry funded long term study (30+ years) citation needed. > We medicate a lot of problems which are caused/worsened by society. We need a solution: Either we fundamentally restructure society, or we medicate. I think this is a false dichotomy, not backed by any credible research and is a clever way for the pharmacy industry to sell drugs instead of society expending effort on alternative solutions. edit (To clarify): Specifically you are jumping from "lot of problems which are caused/worsened by society" to a polarized choice of "medicate" or "fundamentally restructure society". But it should be clear that there is a whole field of available approaches which aren't "fundamental restructuring" which can attempt to alleviate such problems and unless research has enumerated and depleted all other available gradual options, this again, is a bogus dichotomy.
- scottmf 10y ago
  We have real data which heavily backs the case for medicating. You have emotion and conjecture. >Non-industry funded long term study (30+ years) citation needed. What do you want? You're suggesting all these studies are funded by pharma cos and the scientists are falsifying data? If you're not going to believe any of the data and stick to your own emotions on the subject there's no point discussing this. Until you have anything besides personal feelings and unfounded beliefs we should obviously stick to what we're doing. Anything else is dangerous and unscientific.

panglott 10y ago

One thing that has definitely changed is the level of academic expectations for young kids. Working with educators, it's apparent how much expectations have changed even in the last 10-15 years. Things that children were once expected to know in 1st grade are now expectations of children in kindergarten or even pre-kindergarten. Kindergarten is the new 1st grade, in terms of reading, and that means children have to spend more time sitting and copying letters and words. In kindergarten, some children will be a year older than other children, and a year is a massive amount of time, developmentally speaking, when you're talking about 5-year-olds. The biggest risk factors for an ADHD diagnosis are being in the youngest quartile of your grade and being male. Neither of those are actual medical problems.

forgotpwtomain 10y ago
> One thing that has definitely changed is the level of academic expectations for young kids. Working with educators, it's apparent how much expectations have changed even in the last 10-15 years. Really, I think this needs a reference/citation? We didn't read a classic English book until 7th or 8th grade when I was in school. In contrast to say my parents education in Russia where they read Pushkin in ~2nd grade. Math education was several years behind what they were taught as well.
- atemerev 10y ago
  Pushkin wrote quite a lot of child books, easily accessible for 2nd grade. It's not like Tolstoi or Dostoyevsky (those had to wait until grade 10).
  - forgotpwtomain 10y ago
    There are also great children's authors in English - A.A. Milne, Oscar Wilde's stories, Mark Twain, Kipling, Baum (Wizard of Oz). All of these could be accessible at various stages within grades 2-5.
    - atemerev 10y ago