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So you recognize the inequality inherent in the situation. This is exactly why being sensitive to objectification of women is important for fighting gender ineq

So you recognize the inequality inherent in the situation. This is exactly why being sensitive to objectification of women is important for fighting gender inequality! The reason society praises men getting sex is because women are / have been historically treated in part as objects of pleasure / things to be won / conquests. Brides are literally given away at weddings. Women's suffrage in the US came after slaves. Once the "object" is "defiled" it is shamed, but the men are not defilable because they're not objects! They can't be defiled because it's not their job to be objects for others. Like, if I sleep in a set of sheets, and then you go to sleep in the sheets, you might say the sheets are defiled. But in no world do you say either of us are defiled. Society currently treats women like bedsheets, to put it lightly. Women are only praised for getting "suitors," so people who ask them to be their girlfriends, and people who ask them to marry them. But if you follow that model, women have no agency. There's no agency in waiting for men to ask. Again, they're just objects. And people take this all as normal?! That a man having sex never treats the man as an object of pleasure, but as a taker of pleasure? And women are just pleasure-giving commodities? That's exactly the problem. I don't think people care that much about what they're praised for, but more that they are seen as whole people instead of objects without agency.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Women had fewer votes than slaves. Incorrect. When slavery was legal, women had zero votes in and slaves had zero votes. Presumably, you are confusing the 3/5 compromise -- by which slaves contributed to the representation of the states in which they were held -- with giving "votes" to slaves, but that's not correct (it just gave more power in federal government to the states in which they were held.) But, not only is that not correct, but since women were constitutionally "free persons" despite not being granted voting rights, they were counted as full -- not 3/5 -- people for representation. So if you are counting their contribution to their states representation as "votes" (which is, again, wrong) they would have more than slaves, not less.
- kajecounterhack 10y ago
  Cool. Thanks for correcting me on this, TIL. That said, this does not invalidate and I still stand by my point.
jimmyk 10y ago
>So you recognize the inequality inherent in the situation. Yes, I think the inequality inherent to the relationship between men and women will inevitably result in people being impressed by certain accomplishments when done by men and other accomplishments when done by women. >The reason society praises men getting sex is because women are / have been historically treated in part as objects of pleasure / things to be won / conquests. Don't you think it has more to do with the fact that it's difficult to convince a lot of women to have sex with you? >Once the "object" is "defiled" it is shamed, but the men are not defilable because they're not objects! If it turns out that either A) women having casual sex is bad for society or B) women having the sorts of personality traits that lead them to have lots of casual sex is bad for society, is shaming not an appropriate tool to improve society? As far as defiling goes, do you believe that sex has the same effect on women that it has on men and that the sort of personality traits that cause a woman to seek out sex with men other than a life partner are the sort of personality traits that men find desirable in life partners?
- kajecounterhack 10y ago
  Don't you think it has more to do with the fact that it's difficult to convince a lot of women to have sex with you? This statement depends on who you are. Attractive males and females both get more sex than unattractive ones. Society has a systemic problem however, regarding how women are viewed. is shaming not an appropriate tool to improve society Ideas A & B are moot. It's bad for society to oppress classes of people based on their gender (discrimination). Shaming people for their gender in the name of "improving society" is pretty ludicrous. do you believe that sex has the same effect on women that it has on men and that the sort of personality traits that cause a woman to seek out sex with men other than a life partner are the sort of personality traits that men find desirable in life partners? What I believe is that people (but mainly men) should not look for sex toys as life partners. That's what objectification is, and it's unfortunate that every society currently has varying levels of objectifying women built-in; that is, this is not something on just an individual basis but something systemic which is my broader point. Generalizing about the effects of sex on men vs women is pointless; sex means something different to every person and affects every person differently.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Women had fewer votes than slaves. Incorrect. When slavery was legal, women had zero votes in and slaves had zero votes. Presumably, you are confusing the 3/5 compromise -- by which slaves contributed to the representation of the states in which they were held -- with giving "votes" to slaves, but that's not correct (it just gave more power in federal government to the states in which they were held.) But, not only is that not correct, but since women were constitutionally "free persons" despite not being granted voting rights, they were counted as full -- not 3/5 -- people for representation. So if you are counting their contribution to their states representation as "votes" (which is, again, wrong) they would have more than slaves, not less.

kajecounterhack 10y ago
Cool. Thanks for correcting me on this, TIL. That said, this does not invalidate and I still stand by my point.

jimmyk 10y ago

>So you recognize the inequality inherent in the situation. Yes, I think the inequality inherent to the relationship between men and women will inevitably result in people being impressed by certain accomplishments when done by men and other accomplishments when done by women. >The reason society praises men getting sex is because women are / have been historically treated in part as objects of pleasure / things to be won / conquests. Don't you think it has more to do with the fact that it's difficult to convince a lot of women to have sex with you? >Once the "object" is "defiled" it is shamed, but the men are not defilable because they're not objects! If it turns out that either A) women having casual sex is bad for society or B) women having the sorts of personality traits that lead them to have lots of casual sex is bad for society, is shaming not an appropriate tool to improve society? As far as defiling goes, do you believe that sex has the same effect on women that it has on men and that the sort of personality traits that cause a woman to seek out sex with men other than a life partner are the sort of personality traits that men find desirable in life partners?

kajecounterhack 10y ago
Don't you think it has more to do with the fact that it's difficult to convince a lot of women to have sex with you? This statement depends on who you are. Attractive males and females both get more sex than unattractive ones. Society has a systemic problem however, regarding how women are viewed. is shaming not an appropriate tool to improve society Ideas A & B are moot. It's bad for society to oppress classes of people based on their gender (discrimination). Shaming people for their gender in the name of "improving society" is pretty ludicrous. do you believe that sex has the same effect on women that it has on men and that the sort of personality traits that cause a woman to seek out sex with men other than a life partner are the sort of personality traits that men find desirable in life partners? What I believe is that people (but mainly men) should not look for sex toys as life partners. That's what objectification is, and it's unfortunate that every society currently has varying levels of objectifying women built-in; that is, this is not something on just an individual basis but something systemic which is my broader point. Generalizing about the effects of sex on men vs women is pointless; sex means something different to every person and affects every person differently.