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Estonia seems to have succeeded quite well. Not totally trouble-free, but astonishingly different from Soviet times and in many areas cleaner than non-ex-Commun

Estonia seems to have succeeded quite well. Not totally trouble-free, but astonishingly different from Soviet times and in many areas cleaner than non-ex-Communist neighbours around Baltic sea. A lot of this probably has to do with the fact that the Soviet bureaucracy was imposed by an occupying force that was loathed, and once that rule ended, Estonians went back to basics, something they had had before WWII and something entirely new.

jomamaxx 10y ago
I would argue that Eastern European countries did have a 'collapse' and a 'massively pivotal event' which afforded them the opportunity to toss the communists from power and start anew. Nobody in Eastern Europe would even hint at communism these days, so many died and were oppressed ... This is very different from Vietnam and China wherein they are 'post-Communist' countries trying to 'outgrow' their 20th century communist ideals and find a 'new way'. I suggest both in China and Vietnam the political apparatus still believes they 'adhere to communist principles'. Very different from East Europe. Cultures and histories are so different it's hard to compare. Arguably, China has had a lot of 'red tape' to deal with for a few thousand years :)
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Yes the old system suffered a full bankruptcy, and indeed it is hard to compare to different cultures. The Chinese call their system "socialist market economy" but I would call it "communistic capitalism" (communistic administration system, capitalistic economy).
  - fsloth 10y ago
    I was under the impression the administration just follows thousands years old tradition of mandarins and bureaucratic administrators - nothing particularly communistic about that. Although, I'm not an expert on the subject.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      I think you're right; the thousand-year-old model of administration in China actually has lots in common with real communism as it was implemented in China, and in Soviet Union. The names are different; there's no Emperor and no Mandarins but there's a General Secretary and there are party officials.
vram22 10y ago
How about Latvia and Lithuania, relative to Estonia, on the same criteria?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  I don't know in much detail but my impression is that the Estonians are quite a lot ahead of them in good governance. Probably one country is better in some areas and another is doing well in other types of governance. However, Estonia is well ahead of its Baltic neighbours in e.g. Transparency International corruption ranking, and a world apart from former colonial power Russia. Compare the percentile rankings (90 % means that country is better than 90% of world): Estonia 79%, Latvia 63 %, Lithuania 66 % Compare to Finland 98 %, Sweden 99 %, Germany 93 %, USA 86 %, UK 90 %, China: 33 %, Russia: 13 %

jomamaxx 10y ago

I would argue that Eastern European countries did have a 'collapse' and a 'massively pivotal event' which afforded them the opportunity to toss the communists from power and start anew. Nobody in Eastern Europe would even hint at communism these days, so many died and were oppressed ... This is very different from Vietnam and China wherein they are 'post-Communist' countries trying to 'outgrow' their 20th century communist ideals and find a 'new way'. I suggest both in China and Vietnam the political apparatus still believes they 'adhere to communist principles'. Very different from East Europe. Cultures and histories are so different it's hard to compare. Arguably, China has had a lot of 'red tape' to deal with for a few thousand years :)

ptaipale 10y ago
Yes the old system suffered a full bankruptcy, and indeed it is hard to compare to different cultures. The Chinese call their system "socialist market economy" but I would call it "communistic capitalism" (communistic administration system, capitalistic economy).
- fsloth 10y ago
  I was under the impression the administration just follows thousands years old tradition of mandarins and bureaucratic administrators - nothing particularly communistic about that. Although, I'm not an expert on the subject.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    I think you're right; the thousand-year-old model of administration in China actually has lots in common with real communism as it was implemented in China, and in Soviet Union. The names are different; there's no Emperor and no Mandarins but there's a General Secretary and there are party officials.

vram22 10y ago

How about Latvia and Lithuania, relative to Estonia, on the same criteria?

ptaipale 10y ago
I don't know in much detail but my impression is that the Estonians are quite a lot ahead of them in good governance. Probably one country is better in some areas and another is doing well in other types of governance. However, Estonia is well ahead of its Baltic neighbours in e.g. Transparency International corruption ranking, and a world apart from former colonial power Russia. Compare the percentile rankings (90 % means that country is better than 90% of world): Estonia 79%, Latvia 63 %, Lithuania 66 % Compare to Finland 98 %, Sweden 99 %, Germany 93 %, USA 86 %, UK 90 %, China: 33 %, Russia: 13 %