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Oh the irony! 'Superior technology', when talking about a language, is entirely subjective and based on your opinion of why it is superior. I've seen some ama

Oh the irony! 'Superior technology', when talking about a language, is entirely subjective and based on your opinion of why it is superior. I've seen some amazingly elegant code in all of those things you've dismissed. Facebook is written in PHP, and I'm willing to bet you use an application or two that runs nicely on Node or Go. so what social signals are you talking about?

tome 10y ago
> 'Superior technology', when talking about a language, is entirely subjective No it's not.
- dopamean 10y ago
  Why isn't it? If I needed to build a static site for someone wouldn't some tools and languages be better than others? Those same tools and languages may not be useful for building a very high traffic site that perhaps has an ecommerce component.
  - tome 10y ago
    Tools and languages might (hypothetically) be better for a specific narrow purpose whilst being objectively inferior technology. A hammer is better for some jobs than a CNC machine.
    - exclusiv 10y ago
      Your arrogance really shows with "hypothetically" in that context. That's part of what the article is discussing as a real issue.
      - tome 10y ago
        I'm terribly sorry if I upset anyone by sounding arrogant. That wasn't my intention and is probably an unfortunate consequence of making snippy remarks on the internet, particularly ones that seem self-evident to me, even if others have differing perspectives. That said, I do not see how anyone could not consider Python superior technology to PHP, C superior technology to BCPL and Pascal superior technology to punch cards.
        exclusiv 10y ago
        All good - I think the initial short comment and the subtle "hypothetically" really just obscured what you were trying to say in response to the parent's "entirely subjective" comment - that some languages are objectively technologically superior to some others. I do agree with that. I can think of various languages over ColdFusion as an example. Python versus PHP is not so clear cut if you look at the modern versions. Anyway, I do think we should be more welcoming to those that use other languages though as the article recommends. It's possible to make a LOT of money these days doing simple CRUD apps. It's a great time to be a developer. We're all very blessed. So shouting about how one language is superior to another is meaningless to a lot of people. Even if you're right, people will feel like you're telling them they wasted their time with the others language(s). And that approach won't convert them if that's your goal. Many of us also partake in business decisions so even if you think Python is technologically superior to PHP as an example, it won't make sense for many projects. Depending on your client base and/or your in-house skill-set - it may rarely make sense. After you factor in things like total cost of ownership, what a client's current tech team is capable in, hosting costs, etc, technologically superior can be meaningless in many situations. Enterprise systems are usually technologically superior and clients often only need or use 25% or less of the capabilities. Most of us could care less about enterprise systems.
    - dopamean 10y ago
      How is a CNC machine superior to a hammer? A CNC machine isn't going to help me hang a framed photo in my bathroom.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- 13of40 10y ago
  Which is the superior scripting language, bash or PowerShell?
- exclusiv 10y ago
  Yes it is. There is no language that is superior for all use-cases.
  - tome 10y ago
    You are core that there is no most superior. That's not my point. Some languages are (technologically) superior to some others.
mindslight 10y ago
It's mostly subjective, but not entirely. PHP and Java really do objectively suck.
yvdriess 10y ago
> Facebook is written in PHP For social reasons, not technical ones. PHP is the language of cheap labour. To address the technical issues, Facebook's PHP code gets thoroughly translated in their backend.
- cfreeman 10y ago
  And social reasons aren't important? It's classic socially clueless developer mentality to think technical considerations are the only thing that matter.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Assuming you believe social reasons are important (rather than an unfortunate constraint on the world), then my strategy is still valid (if it works). It will make the technically superior languages socially superior as well.
  - yvdriess 10y ago
    > classic clueless developer mentality Nice straw man argument. Pointing out that PHP is used for social/economic reasons is exactly saying that there are considerations outside technical merit. At the same time, Facebook is a big Haskell user, but that is because of its technical merits. (Simon Marlow works for Facebook) On a back-end technology such as a compiler, the technical merits of the language are much more important than the social merits of finding enough low-skilled/low-paid developers.
- shanacarp 10y ago
  No, mostly timing ones. Php was the cutting edge yet fully developed technology when they launched at Harvard. Developing CakePHP was in part a technical decision driven by the reality that a full rewrite in a new language is a form of technical debt in and of itself because of the time involved. Or so I've heard
psyc 10y ago
People disagreeing doesn't automatically make it subjective. It would be an amazing coincidence if every language and framework happened to be exactly as well-designed as every other, even though they were designed by different people with varied backgrounds, at different times.

tome 10y ago

> 'Superior technology', when talking about a language, is entirely subjective No it's not.

dopamean 10y ago
Why isn't it? If I needed to build a static site for someone wouldn't some tools and languages be better than others? Those same tools and languages may not be useful for building a very high traffic site that perhaps has an ecommerce component.
- tome 10y ago
  Tools and languages might (hypothetically) be better for a specific narrow purpose whilst being objectively inferior technology. A hammer is better for some jobs than a CNC machine.
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    Your arrogance really shows with "hypothetically" in that context. That's part of what the article is discussing as a real issue.
    - tome 10y ago
      I'm terribly sorry if I upset anyone by sounding arrogant. That wasn't my intention and is probably an unfortunate consequence of making snippy remarks on the internet, particularly ones that seem self-evident to me, even if others have differing perspectives. That said, I do not see how anyone could not consider Python superior technology to PHP, C superior technology to BCPL and Pascal superior technology to punch cards.
      - exclusiv 10y ago
        All good - I think the initial short comment and the subtle "hypothetically" really just obscured what you were trying to say in response to the parent's "entirely subjective" comment - that some languages are objectively technologically superior to some others. I do agree with that. I can think of various languages over ColdFusion as an example. Python versus PHP is not so clear cut if you look at the modern versions. Anyway, I do think we should be more welcoming to those that use other languages though as the article recommends. It's possible to make a LOT of money these days doing simple CRUD apps. It's a great time to be a developer. We're all very blessed. So shouting about how one language is superior to another is meaningless to a lot of people. Even if you're right, people will feel like you're telling them they wasted their time with the others language(s). And that approach won't convert them if that's your goal. Many of us also partake in business decisions so even if you think Python is technologically superior to PHP as an example, it won't make sense for many projects. Depending on your client base and/or your in-house skill-set - it may rarely make sense. After you factor in things like total cost of ownership, what a client's current tech team is capable in, hosting costs, etc, technologically superior can be meaningless in many situations. Enterprise systems are usually technologically superior and clients often only need or use 25% or less of the capabilities. Most of us could care less about enterprise systems.
  - dopamean 10y ago
    How is a CNC machine superior to a hammer? A CNC machine isn't going to help me hang a framed photo in my bathroom.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
13of40 10y ago
Which is the superior scripting language, bash or PowerShell?
exclusiv 10y ago
Yes it is. There is no language that is superior for all use-cases.
- tome 10y ago
  You are core that there is no most superior. That's not my point. Some languages are (technologically) superior to some others.

mindslight 10y ago

It's mostly subjective, but not entirely. PHP and Java really do objectively suck.

yvdriess 10y ago

> Facebook is written in PHP For social reasons, not technical ones. PHP is the language of cheap labour. To address the technical issues, Facebook's PHP code gets thoroughly translated in their backend.

cfreeman 10y ago
And social reasons aren't important? It's classic socially clueless developer mentality to think technical considerations are the only thing that matter.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Assuming you believe social reasons are important (rather than an unfortunate constraint on the world), then my strategy is still valid (if it works). It will make the technically superior languages socially superior as well.
- yvdriess 10y ago
  > classic clueless developer mentality Nice straw man argument. Pointing out that PHP is used for social/economic reasons is exactly saying that there are considerations outside technical merit. At the same time, Facebook is a big Haskell user, but that is because of its technical merits. (Simon Marlow works for Facebook) On a back-end technology such as a compiler, the technical merits of the language are much more important than the social merits of finding enough low-skilled/low-paid developers.
shanacarp 10y ago
No, mostly timing ones. Php was the cutting edge yet fully developed technology when they launched at Harvard. Developing CakePHP was in part a technical decision driven by the reality that a full rewrite in a new language is a form of technical debt in and of itself because of the time involved. Or so I've heard

psyc 10y ago

People disagreeing doesn't automatically make it subjective. It would be an amazing coincidence if every language and framework happened to be exactly as well-designed as every other, even though they were designed by different people with varied backgrounds, at different times.