4 ms·

Has any country, ex-Communist or otherwise, ever been able to clean up/ tone down their bureaucracies, except the case of a total collapse?

by NhanH 10y ago

oli5679 10y ago
East-Germany arguably doesn't count because of the impact of the reintegration with West-Germany. Excluding this, Estonia has the highest rank in the 'Doing Business' Index of a former Communist state, and Czech Republic has highest GDP/capita. Both are significantly less bureaucratic than USSR days... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP... http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
- NhanH 10y ago
  Arguably the USSR would be classified in the "total collapse" case though.
hx87 10y ago
Doing business in India still isn't easy at all, but it's definitely better than the hellhole that was the pre-1991 License Raj.
ptaipale 10y ago
Estonia seems to have succeeded quite well. Not totally trouble-free, but astonishingly different from Soviet times and in many areas cleaner than non-ex-Communist neighbours around Baltic sea. A lot of this probably has to do with the fact that the Soviet bureaucracy was imposed by an occupying force that was loathed, and once that rule ended, Estonians went back to basics, something they had had before WWII and something entirely new.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  I would argue that Eastern European countries did have a 'collapse' and a 'massively pivotal event' which afforded them the opportunity to toss the communists from power and start anew. Nobody in Eastern Europe would even hint at communism these days, so many died and were oppressed ... This is very different from Vietnam and China wherein they are 'post-Communist' countries trying to 'outgrow' their 20th century communist ideals and find a 'new way'. I suggest both in China and Vietnam the political apparatus still believes they 'adhere to communist principles'. Very different from East Europe. Cultures and histories are so different it's hard to compare. Arguably, China has had a lot of 'red tape' to deal with for a few thousand years :)
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Yes the old system suffered a full bankruptcy, and indeed it is hard to compare to different cultures. The Chinese call their system "socialist market economy" but I would call it "communistic capitalism" (communistic administration system, capitalistic economy).
    - fsloth 10y ago
      I was under the impression the administration just follows thousands years old tradition of mandarins and bureaucratic administrators - nothing particularly communistic about that. Although, I'm not an expert on the subject.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        I think you're right; the thousand-year-old model of administration in China actually has lots in common with real communism as it was implemented in China, and in Soviet Union. The names are different; there's no Emperor and no Mandarins but there's a General Secretary and there are party officials.
- vram22 10y ago
  How about Latvia and Lithuania, relative to Estonia, on the same criteria?
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    I don't know in much detail but my impression is that the Estonians are quite a lot ahead of them in good governance. Probably one country is better in some areas and another is doing well in other types of governance. However, Estonia is well ahead of its Baltic neighbours in e.g. Transparency International corruption ranking, and a world apart from former colonial power Russia. Compare the percentile rankings (90 % means that country is better than 90% of world): Estonia 79%, Latvia 63 %, Lithuania 66 % Compare to Finland 98 %, Sweden 99 %, Germany 93 %, USA 86 %, UK 90 %, China: 33 %, Russia: 13 %
ethbro 10y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform I believe it was pushed though in the 19th century US by popular support. I think you also see that happening in China, albeit with the hobble of a less open media environment delaying communication of problems to those with authority.
gozur88 10y ago
Oddly enough, Ukraine has made some big strides in that direction. It took a war, though.

Has any country, ex-Communist or otherwise, ever been able to clean up/ tone down their bureaucracies, except the case of a total collapse?

by NhanH 10y ago

Has any country, ex-Communist or otherwise, ever been able to clean up/ tone down their bureaucracies, except the case of a total collapse?

oli5679 10y ago

East-Germany arguably doesn't count because of the impact of the reintegration with West-Germany. Excluding this, Estonia has the highest rank in the 'Doing Business' Index of a former Communist state, and Czech Republic has highest GDP/capita. Both are significantly less bureaucratic than USSR days... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP... http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

NhanH 10y ago
Arguably the USSR would be classified in the "total collapse" case though.

hx87 10y ago

Doing business in India still isn't easy at all, but it's definitely better than the hellhole that was the pre-1991 License Raj.

ptaipale 10y ago

Estonia seems to have succeeded quite well. Not totally trouble-free, but astonishingly different from Soviet times and in many areas cleaner than non-ex-Communist neighbours around Baltic sea. A lot of this probably has to do with the fact that the Soviet bureaucracy was imposed by an occupying force that was loathed, and once that rule ended, Estonians went back to basics, something they had had before WWII and something entirely new.

jomamaxx 10y ago
I would argue that Eastern European countries did have a 'collapse' and a 'massively pivotal event' which afforded them the opportunity to toss the communists from power and start anew. Nobody in Eastern Europe would even hint at communism these days, so many died and were oppressed ... This is very different from Vietnam and China wherein they are 'post-Communist' countries trying to 'outgrow' their 20th century communist ideals and find a 'new way'. I suggest both in China and Vietnam the political apparatus still believes they 'adhere to communist principles'. Very different from East Europe. Cultures and histories are so different it's hard to compare. Arguably, China has had a lot of 'red tape' to deal with for a few thousand years :)
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Yes the old system suffered a full bankruptcy, and indeed it is hard to compare to different cultures. The Chinese call their system "socialist market economy" but I would call it "communistic capitalism" (communistic administration system, capitalistic economy).
  - fsloth 10y ago
    I was under the impression the administration just follows thousands years old tradition of mandarins and bureaucratic administrators - nothing particularly communistic about that. Although, I'm not an expert on the subject.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      I think you're right; the thousand-year-old model of administration in China actually has lots in common with real communism as it was implemented in China, and in Soviet Union. The names are different; there's no Emperor and no Mandarins but there's a General Secretary and there are party officials.
vram22 10y ago
How about Latvia and Lithuania, relative to Estonia, on the same criteria?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  I don't know in much detail but my impression is that the Estonians are quite a lot ahead of them in good governance. Probably one country is better in some areas and another is doing well in other types of governance. However, Estonia is well ahead of its Baltic neighbours in e.g. Transparency International corruption ranking, and a world apart from former colonial power Russia. Compare the percentile rankings (90 % means that country is better than 90% of world): Estonia 79%, Latvia 63 %, Lithuania 66 % Compare to Finland 98 %, Sweden 99 %, Germany 93 %, USA 86 %, UK 90 %, China: 33 %, Russia: 13 %

ethbro 10y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform I believe it was pushed though in the 19th century US by popular support. I think you also see that happening in China, albeit with the hobble of a less open media environment delaying communication of problems to those with authority.

gozur88 10y ago

Oddly enough, Ukraine has made some big strides in that direction. It took a war, though.