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I find it interesting that most post-Communist societies don't ever really get rid of their Communist-era massive bureaucracies. There's never any clean-up or r

I find it interesting that most post-Communist societies don't ever really get rid of their Communist-era massive bureaucracies. There's never any clean-up or reform, nor any real moves to weed out corruption. Its just one day the red tape goes from centrally planned projects to capitalist projects. Often, the real red tape cutting means a culture bribes and other favors towards government officials. Russia is a pretty good example of how high-corruption and bloaty bureaucracy remains post-Communism. Businesses there just consider bribes part of their budget.

NhanH 10y ago
Has any country, ex-Communist or otherwise, ever been able to clean up/ tone down their bureaucracies, except the case of a total collapse?
- oli5679 10y ago
  East-Germany arguably doesn't count because of the impact of the reintegration with West-Germany. Excluding this, Estonia has the highest rank in the 'Doing Business' Index of a former Communist state, and Czech Republic has highest GDP/capita. Both are significantly less bureaucratic than USSR days... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP... http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
  - NhanH 10y ago
    Arguably the USSR would be classified in the "total collapse" case though.
- hx87 10y ago
  Doing business in India still isn't easy at all, but it's definitely better than the hellhole that was the pre-1991 License Raj.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Estonia seems to have succeeded quite well. Not totally trouble-free, but astonishingly different from Soviet times and in many areas cleaner than non-ex-Communist neighbours around Baltic sea. A lot of this probably has to do with the fact that the Soviet bureaucracy was imposed by an occupying force that was loathed, and once that rule ended, Estonians went back to basics, something they had had before WWII and something entirely new.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    I would argue that Eastern European countries did have a 'collapse' and a 'massively pivotal event' which afforded them the opportunity to toss the communists from power and start anew. Nobody in Eastern Europe would even hint at communism these days, so many died and were oppressed ... This is very different from Vietnam and China wherein they are 'post-Communist' countries trying to 'outgrow' their 20th century communist ideals and find a 'new way'. I suggest both in China and Vietnam the political apparatus still believes they 'adhere to communist principles'. Very different from East Europe. Cultures and histories are so different it's hard to compare. Arguably, China has had a lot of 'red tape' to deal with for a few thousand years :)
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Yes the old system suffered a full bankruptcy, and indeed it is hard to compare to different cultures. The Chinese call their system "socialist market economy" but I would call it "communistic capitalism" (communistic administration system, capitalistic economy).
      - fsloth 10y ago
        I was under the impression the administration just follows thousands years old tradition of mandarins and bureaucratic administrators - nothing particularly communistic about that. Although, I'm not an expert on the subject.
        ptaipale 10y ago
- ethbro 10y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform I believe it was pushed though in the 19th century US by popular support. I think you also see that happening in China, albeit with the hobble of a less open media environment delaying communication of problems to those with authority.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Oddly enough, Ukraine has made some big strides in that direction. It took a war, though.
maverick_iceman 10y ago
Counterexamples: Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. And most East European countries.
fsloth 10y ago
Why would the bureaucracies be communist era? I think they are far older breed. E.g. hungary was part of the Austro-Hungrian empire (with the intentionallly convoluted bureauracy to play the different nationalities of the empire against one another). A lot of them were under the russian empire with it's bureaucratic legions, while the balkans were under ottoman rule (again, not the most dynamic or uncorrupt of administrations, to put it kindly). The places that have a dynamic spirit in them, like Estonia, are special. They were a swedish domain and then under german rule with hanseatic league, thus creating tradition of good governance, before russia took over. I don't know of this explains anything, though.

NhanH 10y ago

Has any country, ex-Communist or otherwise, ever been able to clean up/ tone down their bureaucracies, except the case of a total collapse?

oli5679 10y ago
East-Germany arguably doesn't count because of the impact of the reintegration with West-Germany. Excluding this, Estonia has the highest rank in the 'Doing Business' Index of a former Communist state, and Czech Republic has highest GDP/capita. Both are significantly less bureaucratic than USSR days... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP... http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
- NhanH 10y ago
  Arguably the USSR would be classified in the "total collapse" case though.
hx87 10y ago
Doing business in India still isn't easy at all, but it's definitely better than the hellhole that was the pre-1991 License Raj.
ptaipale 10y ago
Estonia seems to have succeeded quite well. Not totally trouble-free, but astonishingly different from Soviet times and in many areas cleaner than non-ex-Communist neighbours around Baltic sea. A lot of this probably has to do with the fact that the Soviet bureaucracy was imposed by an occupying force that was loathed, and once that rule ended, Estonians went back to basics, something they had had before WWII and something entirely new.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  I would argue that Eastern European countries did have a 'collapse' and a 'massively pivotal event' which afforded them the opportunity to toss the communists from power and start anew. Nobody in Eastern Europe would even hint at communism these days, so many died and were oppressed ... This is very different from Vietnam and China wherein they are 'post-Communist' countries trying to 'outgrow' their 20th century communist ideals and find a 'new way'. I suggest both in China and Vietnam the political apparatus still believes they 'adhere to communist principles'. Very different from East Europe. Cultures and histories are so different it's hard to compare. Arguably, China has had a lot of 'red tape' to deal with for a few thousand years :)
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Yes the old system suffered a full bankruptcy, and indeed it is hard to compare to different cultures. The Chinese call their system "socialist market economy" but I would call it "communistic capitalism" (communistic administration system, capitalistic economy).
    - fsloth 10y ago
      I was under the impression the administration just follows thousands years old tradition of mandarins and bureaucratic administrators - nothing particularly communistic about that. Although, I'm not an expert on the subject.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
ethbro 10y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Civil_Service_Reform I believe it was pushed though in the 19th century US by popular support. I think you also see that happening in China, albeit with the hobble of a less open media environment delaying communication of problems to those with authority.
gozur88 10y ago
Oddly enough, Ukraine has made some big strides in that direction. It took a war, though.

maverick_iceman 10y ago

Counterexamples: Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. And most East European countries.

fsloth 10y ago

Why would the bureaucracies be communist era? I think they are far older breed. E.g. hungary was part of the Austro-Hungrian empire (with the intentionallly convoluted bureauracy to play the different nationalities of the empire against one another). A lot of them were under the russian empire with it's bureaucratic legions, while the balkans were under ottoman rule (again, not the most dynamic or uncorrupt of administrations, to put it kindly). The places that have a dynamic spirit in them, like Estonia, are special. They were a swedish domain and then under german rule with hanseatic league, thus creating tradition of good governance, before russia took over. I don't know of this explains anything, though.