7 ms·

Scientist believes the summer ice cover at the north pole is about to disappear

26 points by vmateixeira 10y ago

tmaly 10y ago
We can pass all the EPA regulations we want in the US, but if China and India do nothing, it is a moot point.
- balabaster 10y ago
  I think at this point in the game, it's seemingly apparent that not enough countries of any consequence give a shit. So it'll be left to the ones that do to clean up the mess and start battling forward. Shrugging and saying "oh well, there's nothing we can do about it, may as well just carry on as normal" doesn't help anyone. I saw a promising article recently about a new design for artificial photosynthesis that converts atmospheric carbon dioxide with the help of a photovoltaic cell to a burnable fuel. Apparently It's more efficient than natural photosynthesis, though by some accounts not as efficient as current photovoltaic cells. It would be exciting if that could be adapted to help pull CO2 out of the atmosphere and help regulate greenhouse gases.
- setum 10y ago
  It's silly to blame China & India when US with quarter the population of India, is and has been the biggest producer of green-house gases, with little to no signs of improvement. US is the inventor of the concept of climate-change denial. On the other hand India and China not just accept climate-change and its impact on environment, but have shown willingness to take positive steps.
  - Retric 10y ago
    China (22.7%) produces almost 50% more green houses gasses than the US (15.6%). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous... The per capita trend is even more troubling with US down ~20% from peak and China on a very strong upward trend.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - melling 10y ago
      China has 4x the number of people. Until the US produces 1/4 of the emissions, i don't think we can complain. Also consider, that for decades, the US was the biggest emitter. We created the problem. We should be taking a leading role. As we drive the costs lower, others will follow. China already uses more solar and wind power.
    - piva00 10y ago
      China is developing and it's impossible in the current economical scenario to do that without ramping up emissions, the US, EU and other developed countries had the luck to do that when we didn't knew (or didn't care) about this. It's easier for a developed nation to curb their emissions, just look here to the EU in general and even more to countries like Sweden or other Scandinavians, France and even Germany doesn't look so bad compared to the US. We can point fingers all we want to developing nations but they are only the main contributors RIGHT NOW, historically the US and EU have much more to blame. But blame alone right now will not solve anything.
      - Retric 10y ago
        China and the US could both easily afford to replace all coal production with wind and solar. Public transit can make a huge different with cars. So, it's more priority's vs need.
  - pmyjavec 10y ago
    Totally agree. China & India have had very little, if any, environmental protection policies or fair labour laws for a long time, so manufacturing was sent overseas just so big corporations could make an extra dollar. Then what? Western countries turn around and try say they're the problem for this mess. It's not right. Americans were happy to consume their goods for years without putting much thought into the environmental impact large scale consumerism was having. You're right it seems China & India are at least trying to mitigate the damage done, and really making a mockery of the USA while they're at it. Especially considering so much data about climate change is coming out of NASA.
- coldpie 10y ago
  Uh, no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... And, the US doing nothing justifies China and India also doing nothing. It's a team effort, it's important for everyone to show good faith and recognize that this is a challenging issue.
  - setum 10y ago
    Of course, it's a team effort. And the country that touts itself as a world/team leader on every other front, seems to be leading us all to an apocalypse.
- jackhack 10y ago
  I agree with the sentiment, but not the assumption that "we" can do anything about a celestial phenomenon. Humans cannot change the oscillating output of a certain nearby star. That is the source of the minuscule changes to the Earth's temperature underway, not human behavior. Contrary to the hysterics of so-called climate scientists (who have been shown, time and time again, to have cherry-picked their data or invented it entirely; aka "data fraud") there is no evidence humans are changing the temperature of the planet. That being said, China seems to have no regard whatsoever for gross pollution of the earth, skies, and seas. A separate issue but worth addressing. [edit: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=climate+change+data+fraud http://lmgtfy.com/?q=climate+change+data+fraud NASA has fiddled with the data: `From the publicly available data, Ewert made an unbelievable discovery: Between the years 2010 and 2012 the data measured since 1881 were altered so that they showed a significant warming, especially after 1950. […] A comparison of the data from 2010 with the data of 2012 shows that NASA-GISS had altered its own datasets so that especially after WWII a clear warming appears – although it never existed.”` If you're not willing to trust data, that makes you religious, not scientific.
  - coldpie 10y ago
    Your post is factually wrong. Please read the latest IPCC report. Edit for specific suggestion, the synthesis report for policymakers is short, easy to read, and extremely illuminating. http://ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf http://ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_S...
  - Rooster61 10y ago
    You criticize your opponent by saying that they are dogmatic for ignoring data, while yourself totally ignoring the evidence they have just posted. You then pour salt on the wound by using lmgtfy for someone who actually went to the trouble of finding a document that refutes your claim. This might not be the forum for you, friend.
    - coldpie 10y ago
      Conspiracy theorists are generally beyond help. It's not worth arguing with them. But if you leave it unchallenged, it might lead an uninformed observer to think, "maybe the truth is in the middle." These kinds of posts are best used as a springboard to point impressionable observers to reliable sources of information to help prevent the spread of nonsense.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  How about taking the lead?
Rooster61 10y ago
The thing that bothers me about the current situation is that this trend would continue even if you wiped every trace of mankind from the earth. As is said in the article, natural methane out-gassing will continue regardless of how we curtail our emissions, not to mention CO2 out-gassing that also occurs through volcanic and tectonic vectors. To combat this problem, we will need a system to actively remove greenhouse gasses from the atmosphere en mass (something that is very, very hard to do to a magnitude that would actually affect climate change significantly).
zengid 10y ago
How far away are we from developing a scalable air filter for CO2? I found this.. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/531346/can-sucking-co2-out-of-the-atmosphere-really-work/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/531346/can-sucking-co2-ou...
- Rooster61 10y ago
  A long ways. Even building a solution big enough to match the yearly production of CO2 would be a gargantuan feat of engineering. It takes a prohibitively large amount of energy to capture and process that much gas.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
skrowl 10y ago
It seems like we've heard this before, haven't we?
calebm 10y ago
I wish predictit.org (or a similar site) had a way to bet on this prediction, because I would like to bet against it.

26 points by vmateixeira 10y ago

tmaly 10y ago

We can pass all the EPA regulations we want in the US, but if China and India do nothing, it is a moot point.

balabaster 10y ago
I think at this point in the game, it's seemingly apparent that not enough countries of any consequence give a shit. So it'll be left to the ones that do to clean up the mess and start battling forward. Shrugging and saying "oh well, there's nothing we can do about it, may as well just carry on as normal" doesn't help anyone. I saw a promising article recently about a new design for artificial photosynthesis that converts atmospheric carbon dioxide with the help of a photovoltaic cell to a burnable fuel. Apparently It's more efficient than natural photosynthesis, though by some accounts not as efficient as current photovoltaic cells. It would be exciting if that could be adapted to help pull CO2 out of the atmosphere and help regulate greenhouse gases.
setum 10y ago
It's silly to blame China & India when US with quarter the population of India, is and has been the biggest producer of green-house gases, with little to no signs of improvement. US is the inventor of the concept of climate-change denial. On the other hand India and China not just accept climate-change and its impact on environment, but have shown willingness to take positive steps.
- Retric 10y ago
  China (22.7%) produces almost 50% more green houses gasses than the US (15.6%). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous... The per capita trend is even more troubling with US down ~20% from peak and China on a very strong upward trend.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - melling 10y ago
    China has 4x the number of people. Until the US produces 1/4 of the emissions, i don't think we can complain. Also consider, that for decades, the US was the biggest emitter. We created the problem. We should be taking a leading role. As we drive the costs lower, others will follow. China already uses more solar and wind power.
  - piva00 10y ago
    China is developing and it's impossible in the current economical scenario to do that without ramping up emissions, the US, EU and other developed countries had the luck to do that when we didn't knew (or didn't care) about this. It's easier for a developed nation to curb their emissions, just look here to the EU in general and even more to countries like Sweden or other Scandinavians, France and even Germany doesn't look so bad compared to the US. We can point fingers all we want to developing nations but they are only the main contributors RIGHT NOW, historically the US and EU have much more to blame. But blame alone right now will not solve anything.
    - Retric 10y ago
      China and the US could both easily afford to replace all coal production with wind and solar. Public transit can make a huge different with cars. So, it's more priority's vs need.
- pmyjavec 10y ago
  Totally agree. China & India have had very little, if any, environmental protection policies or fair labour laws for a long time, so manufacturing was sent overseas just so big corporations could make an extra dollar. Then what? Western countries turn around and try say they're the problem for this mess. It's not right. Americans were happy to consume their goods for years without putting much thought into the environmental impact large scale consumerism was having. You're right it seems China & India are at least trying to mitigate the damage done, and really making a mockery of the USA while they're at it. Especially considering so much data about climate change is coming out of NASA.
coldpie 10y ago
Uh, no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... And, the US doing nothing justifies China and India also doing nothing. It's a team effort, it's important for everyone to show good faith and recognize that this is a challenging issue.
- setum 10y ago
  Of course, it's a team effort. And the country that touts itself as a world/team leader on every other front, seems to be leading us all to an apocalypse.
jackhack 10y ago
I agree with the sentiment, but not the assumption that "we" can do anything about a celestial phenomenon. Humans cannot change the oscillating output of a certain nearby star. That is the source of the minuscule changes to the Earth's temperature underway, not human behavior. Contrary to the hysterics of so-called climate scientists (who have been shown, time and time again, to have cherry-picked their data or invented it entirely; aka "data fraud") there is no evidence humans are changing the temperature of the planet. That being said, China seems to have no regard whatsoever for gross pollution of the earth, skies, and seas. A separate issue but worth addressing. [edit: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=climate+change+data+fraud http://lmgtfy.com/?q=climate+change+data+fraud NASA has fiddled with the data: `From the publicly available data, Ewert made an unbelievable discovery: Between the years 2010 and 2012 the data measured since 1881 were altered so that they showed a significant warming, especially after 1950. […] A comparison of the data from 2010 with the data of 2012 shows that NASA-GISS had altered its own datasets so that especially after WWII a clear warming appears – although it never existed.”` If you're not willing to trust data, that makes you religious, not scientific.
- coldpie 10y ago
  Your post is factually wrong. Please read the latest IPCC report. Edit for specific suggestion, the synthesis report for policymakers is short, easy to read, and extremely illuminating. http://ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf http://ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_S...
- Rooster61 10y ago
  You criticize your opponent by saying that they are dogmatic for ignoring data, while yourself totally ignoring the evidence they have just posted. You then pour salt on the wound by using lmgtfy for someone who actually went to the trouble of finding a document that refutes your claim. This might not be the forum for you, friend.
  - coldpie 10y ago
    Conspiracy theorists are generally beyond help. It's not worth arguing with them. But if you leave it unchallenged, it might lead an uninformed observer to think, "maybe the truth is in the middle." These kinds of posts are best used as a springboard to point impressionable observers to reliable sources of information to help prevent the spread of nonsense.
maxxxxx 10y ago
How about taking the lead?

Rooster61 10y ago

The thing that bothers me about the current situation is that this trend would continue even if you wiped every trace of mankind from the earth. As is said in the article, natural methane out-gassing will continue regardless of how we curtail our emissions, not to mention CO2 out-gassing that also occurs through volcanic and tectonic vectors. To combat this problem, we will need a system to actively remove greenhouse gasses from the atmosphere en mass (something that is very, very hard to do to a magnitude that would actually affect climate change significantly).

zengid 10y ago

How far away are we from developing a scalable air filter for CO2? I found this.. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/531346/can-sucking-co2-out-of-the-atmosphere-really-work/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/531346/can-sucking-co2-ou...

Rooster61 10y ago
A long ways. Even building a solution big enough to match the yearly production of CO2 would be a gargantuan feat of engineering. It takes a prohibitively large amount of energy to capture and process that much gas.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

skrowl 10y ago

It seems like we've heard this before, haven't we?

calebm 10y ago

I wish predictit.org (or a similar site) had a way to bet on this prediction, because I would like to bet against it.