7 ms·

I think basic CompSci courses should really have a course or two on managing software projects and handling the problems of what framework do I use to b

by ido 10y ago

I think basic CompSci courses should really have a course or two on managing software projects and handling the problems of what framework do I use to build my new software app The problem (if it's a problem, depends on who's asking) is that undergrad CS courses mainly train you to be a CS graduate student (which in turn train you to be a CS academic), but most students choose to major in CS because they want to become professional programmers (aka Software Engineers). I've done both bachelor and master level CS studies and job-preparation-wise would probably have gotten as much (or more) from a 1-1.5 years (2-3 semesters) vocational training than I did from 8 years of university. Probably the most apparent perk my studies have gotten me career-wise was being invited to interviews at major tech companies like google and amazon.

jalanb 10y ago
> most students choose to major in CS because they want to become professional programmers (aka Software Engineers) Then why not major in Software Engineering? Is that not an option in American universities?
- erklik 10y ago
  Not sure about America but it's more of lack of understanding in Australia. Also, in the university i am studying in. The university course for a Software Engineer is for 5 years since that is the minimum study time needed to be accredited as an engineer while the CS degree is 3 years. The more messed up thing is that everything taught in CS major is taught the Software Engineering major but Software Engineering has more electives and has a few general engineering units.
- duncanawoods 10y ago
  One problem is that it does not have the standing of a pure subject like math, engineering or CS. Its more vocational, isn't offered by top-tier universities (in the UK) and therefore has lower status e.g. its like taking Media Studies at an ex-poly vs. reading English at Oxford.
  - ENTP 10y ago
    It was very much seen that way back in the day at Birmingham University. We wrote an x11 window manager with audio and graphics processor apps for our first term in 2nd year. I saw academia start to go down the pan at college with the introduction of "ICT". To me, this was nothing but subsidised Microsoft training.
    - dagw 10y ago
      this was nothing but subsidised Microsoft training. "Subsidized Microsoft training" is what most people actually want and need to get the sort of job they aspire to. People with this "Subsidized Microsoft training" are also what many companies are looking to hire. So why is it such a bad thing to offer people this option?
      - mellett68 10y ago
        It's not a problem, unless you go to higher education looking for CS and end up with that instead.
      - ENTP 10y ago
        Because we need people to program computers not use word.
  - mannykannot 10y ago
    There is a problem here, but to be clear, the solution is not to convert CS into vocational training. The problem with the way software engineering was introduced into US universities is that it was usually dumbed-down to broaden its appeal. I do not know if it is still like that.
- douche 10y ago
  It's not common. Usually you can choose between Computer Science or Electrical Engineering, if you want to do things with computers. The problem is, Comp Sci tends towards an inordinate amount of proofs on blackboards and theoretical horse-hockey, that you don't get to actually do in code, while EE tends towards playing with soldering irons and wiring breadboards, with a little embedded low-level programming.
- oedenfield 10y ago
  Or my favorite - Business Administration with Concentration in Management Information Systems. This was my route and it laid a great foundation of how business works (you know, that part of a company that PAYS for IT... as well as business-focused IT (which does lag behind new uses of tech but does cover being ready for fundamental shifts/disruptions - which has been around in the business world since the beginning).
- ido 10y ago
  Don't know about the US but in Israel anything to do with programming is in such high demand and so overbooked (therefor requiring competitive grades to get in) that you get what you can. I got into my bachelors in 2002, at the nadir of the dot-com crash (when demand for CS education was at its lowest) & my grades in high-school were just good enough to get into the Math & CS combined program (both CS or SE had higher requirements). The only other option would have been to go to a private college rather than a state university, which would have had (at least) double the tuition and (at most) half the prestige/employability-potential of a university degree.
  - k__ 10y ago
    Interesting. I'm from Germany and studied "Computer Science and Media" and it was rather overbooked, like Media stuff often is here. But the regular computer science or software engineering degrees (like most technical degrees) aren't overbooked ever. They let in everyone and throw 60% - 70% out after the first year.
    - ido 10y ago
      Unlike Germany, in Israel how desirable a study is is directly correlated with how much money one can make working in it...So media/art stuff is very low on the totem pole.
      - k__ 10y ago
        Hehe. I have the feeling most German (Millenials?) just study what they do in their free time. Yes, there are the academic families, that tell their kids to become lawyer or medical doctor or something like that. But most tell me I was just lucky that I liked doing computer stuff, so I could study computer science and make "mad bucks" while they liked to draw or read and had to study something like languages or fine arts.
        ido 10y ago
        I have actually been living in Germany for the past 3 years, and spent 8 years in Austria before that :) I find the non-materialistic (or at least less materialistic) mentality here preferable. But to be honest I think the only reason is that life in the German speaking countries is much easier - you can earn minimum wage or close to it and still live a decent life. In Israel I had to earn twice as much for half the quality of life (slight exaggeration but only slight).
- soundwave106 10y ago
  Yes, it is an option (at least in America). Many colleges' business departments do offer a "information technology" degree, which typically combines some high-level programming skills with some business school classes (eg accounting, economics, management, marketing, etc.). This is probably the best undergrad option for anyone who wants to be a "professional programmer" over here, if you are more concerned about the writing web apps side and not the optimize-that-algorithm nuts-and-bolts type of side.
uncletaco 10y ago
I think this actually varies from school to school. My undergraduate university, where the CS program was part of the engineering school, focused on software engineering. My graduate university where the CS program was a part of the college of arts and sciences focused a lot more on theory. But my view here may be skewed, because I only remember one professor who taught most of our theory courses -- I took most of his classes. From roughly the same number of years in university, (8ish) I can say there were some clear professional benefits from me having done a masters' program. From my advanced software engineering course I was able to talk to my teammates about Gang of Four and better ways go about problems than if-else loops. From my theory courses I was able to identify problems they were seeing, tell them which algorithms would probably be worth looking into etc... That is all stuff one can learn outside of university, but I learned it while I was there. I get giddy whenever I can try something new and all the writing I did (I wrote a few academic papers) made me really comfortable with writing technical design specs and documentation. When I was in academia I had to document everything anyways so its become second nature to me. I think 2-3 more years of working would have certainly looked better on a resume, but I think my skill set has added to my team as a whole and I'm glad I did it.
cmplxconjugate 10y ago
Well I would argue that universities are here to create acidemics, not create job candidates. That vocational work is exactly what you need to be a software engineer. I think the issue is more people don't understand what university level CS is, or that it's NOT a "get a job" pass.
- ido 10y ago
  Well companies demand it. You can get a job on work experience alone, but if you're just starting out good luck applying to Google/MS/Facebook/Amazon/etc with only vocational training.

by ido 10y ago

jalanb 10y ago

> most students choose to major in CS because they want to become professional programmers (aka Software Engineers) Then why not major in Software Engineering? Is that not an option in American universities?

erklik 10y ago
Not sure about America but it's more of lack of understanding in Australia. Also, in the university i am studying in. The university course for a Software Engineer is for 5 years since that is the minimum study time needed to be accredited as an engineer while the CS degree is 3 years. The more messed up thing is that everything taught in CS major is taught the Software Engineering major but Software Engineering has more electives and has a few general engineering units.
duncanawoods 10y ago
One problem is that it does not have the standing of a pure subject like math, engineering or CS. Its more vocational, isn't offered by top-tier universities (in the UK) and therefore has lower status e.g. its like taking Media Studies at an ex-poly vs. reading English at Oxford.
- ENTP 10y ago
  It was very much seen that way back in the day at Birmingham University. We wrote an x11 window manager with audio and graphics processor apps for our first term in 2nd year. I saw academia start to go down the pan at college with the introduction of "ICT". To me, this was nothing but subsidised Microsoft training.
  - dagw 10y ago
    this was nothing but subsidised Microsoft training. "Subsidized Microsoft training" is what most people actually want and need to get the sort of job they aspire to. People with this "Subsidized Microsoft training" are also what many companies are looking to hire. So why is it such a bad thing to offer people this option?
    - mellett68 10y ago
      It's not a problem, unless you go to higher education looking for CS and end up with that instead.
    - ENTP 10y ago
      Because we need people to program computers not use word.
- mannykannot 10y ago
  There is a problem here, but to be clear, the solution is not to convert CS into vocational training. The problem with the way software engineering was introduced into US universities is that it was usually dumbed-down to broaden its appeal. I do not know if it is still like that.
douche 10y ago
It's not common. Usually you can choose between Computer Science or Electrical Engineering, if you want to do things with computers. The problem is, Comp Sci tends towards an inordinate amount of proofs on blackboards and theoretical horse-hockey, that you don't get to actually do in code, while EE tends towards playing with soldering irons and wiring breadboards, with a little embedded low-level programming.
oedenfield 10y ago
Or my favorite - Business Administration with Concentration in Management Information Systems. This was my route and it laid a great foundation of how business works (you know, that part of a company that PAYS for IT... as well as business-focused IT (which does lag behind new uses of tech but does cover being ready for fundamental shifts/disruptions - which has been around in the business world since the beginning).
ido 10y ago
Don't know about the US but in Israel anything to do with programming is in such high demand and so overbooked (therefor requiring competitive grades to get in) that you get what you can. I got into my bachelors in 2002, at the nadir of the dot-com crash (when demand for CS education was at its lowest) & my grades in high-school were just good enough to get into the Math & CS combined program (both CS or SE had higher requirements). The only other option would have been to go to a private college rather than a state university, which would have had (at least) double the tuition and (at most) half the prestige/employability-potential of a university degree.
- k__ 10y ago
  Interesting. I'm from Germany and studied "Computer Science and Media" and it was rather overbooked, like Media stuff often is here. But the regular computer science or software engineering degrees (like most technical degrees) aren't overbooked ever. They let in everyone and throw 60% - 70% out after the first year.
  - ido 10y ago
    Unlike Germany, in Israel how desirable a study is is directly correlated with how much money one can make working in it...So media/art stuff is very low on the totem pole.
    - k__ 10y ago
      Hehe. I have the feeling most German (Millenials?) just study what they do in their free time. Yes, there are the academic families, that tell their kids to become lawyer or medical doctor or something like that. But most tell me I was just lucky that I liked doing computer stuff, so I could study computer science and make "mad bucks" while they liked to draw or read and had to study something like languages or fine arts.
      - ido 10y ago
        I have actually been living in Germany for the past 3 years, and spent 8 years in Austria before that :) I find the non-materialistic (or at least less materialistic) mentality here preferable. But to be honest I think the only reason is that life in the German speaking countries is much easier - you can earn minimum wage or close to it and still live a decent life. In Israel I had to earn twice as much for half the quality of life (slight exaggeration but only slight).
soundwave106 10y ago
Yes, it is an option (at least in America). Many colleges' business departments do offer a "information technology" degree, which typically combines some high-level programming skills with some business school classes (eg accounting, economics, management, marketing, etc.). This is probably the best undergrad option for anyone who wants to be a "professional programmer" over here, if you are more concerned about the writing web apps side and not the optimize-that-algorithm nuts-and-bolts type of side.

uncletaco 10y ago

I think this actually varies from school to school. My undergraduate university, where the CS program was part of the engineering school, focused on software engineering. My graduate university where the CS program was a part of the college of arts and sciences focused a lot more on theory. But my view here may be skewed, because I only remember one professor who taught most of our theory courses -- I took most of his classes. From roughly the same number of years in university, (8ish) I can say there were some clear professional benefits from me having done a masters' program. From my advanced software engineering course I was able to talk to my teammates about Gang of Four and better ways go about problems than if-else loops. From my theory courses I was able to identify problems they were seeing, tell them which algorithms would probably be worth looking into etc... That is all stuff one can learn outside of university, but I learned it while I was there. I get giddy whenever I can try something new and all the writing I did (I wrote a few academic papers) made me really comfortable with writing technical design specs and documentation. When I was in academia I had to document everything anyways so its become second nature to me. I think 2-3 more years of working would have certainly looked better on a resume, but I think my skill set has added to my team as a whole and I'm glad I did it.

cmplxconjugate 10y ago

Well I would argue that universities are here to create acidemics, not create job candidates. That vocational work is exactly what you need to be a software engineer. I think the issue is more people don't understand what university level CS is, or that it's NOT a "get a job" pass.

ido 10y ago
Well companies demand it. You can get a job on work experience alone, but if you're just starting out good luck applying to Google/MS/Facebook/Amazon/etc with only vocational training.