5 ms·

It sounds to me like, and I'm not judging here, you're saying, "I want a job, but I don't want to have to prove myself." How is the company supposed to know if

by pionar 10y ago

It sounds to me like, and I'm not judging here, you're saying, "I want a job, but I don't want to have to prove myself." How is the company supposed to know if you're a good fit for the position without an interview process? Blind faith?

balabaster 10y ago
I can't speak to the OP's specific circumstance but when I've been in this position in the (thankfully distant) past, what was more frustrating than anything was the bureaucracy and red tape between getting in the door for an interview and finally sitting down in a paid position. When you're already unemployed and needing that pay cheque, this lead time is terrifying. You need the job now, you need to get paid yesterday, you had 5 interviews last week and every one of them appears to be dragging their heels putting a signed employment contract in front of you and your rent or mortgage payment is due tomorrow. As for "not wanting to prove yourself", you get to a point in your professional life where it's easy to feel like you've proven yourself a thousand times over with previous employment, solid references, a glowing resume, interviews with headhunters etc. and it can be frustrating when you walk in the door anew and despite 25 years of proving yourself, you once again have to redo that work. In an industry where we spend our entire lives automating away repetitive tasks, this is the one repetitive task that we just don't appear to be able to automate away... but if you don't want to go in the front door with all the other candidates, the only other way is to make a name for yourself that spans the industry: - Attend user groups - Attend conferences - Network with key people at those conferences - Become a speaker at conferences - Put up courses on Coursera, PluralSight and other big name training sites This way your name is out there, you're essentially being pre-vetted by the personnel that matter within these companies and you're already well known before you walk in the door. In essence, you're proactively interviewing. When you speak at a conference, you're effectively interviewing at every company who has staff in the room. When you run a course, you're doing the same.
- mooreds 10y ago
  > You need the job now, you need to get paid yesterday, you had 5 interviews last week and every one of them appears to be dragging their heels putting a signed employment contract in front of you and your rent or mortgage payment is due tomorrow. And this is where having savings and access to other assets is crucial. Otherwise this lead time will force you to take the first position that pays, rather than the position that is best. > ... but if you don't want to go in the front door with all the other candidates, the only other way is to make a name for yourself that spans the industry I'd add: - write a blog - write an e-book - give first, whether that is by networking, volunteering, or doing an open source project. All of this is high on the effort scale, but it's an investment that I've seen pay off. There are lower effort tasks you can do, including things like always be networking and sending interesting articles to friends and acquaintances. In fact, when I'm interviewing for a contract, if it doesn't work out for me, I'll often send a note to some former colleagues seeing if any of them are interested. If they are, it's a win-win for the job seeker and the employer at low cost to me.
  - balabaster 10y ago
    I think your point about giving first is a very valid one. When that giving first has a broad reach, aside from the rewarding aspect (particularly with regards to authoring blogs/books/courses) of allowing you to reflect, focus your mind on what you're trying to teach (which often helps crystallize a topic in your own mind), there is a more tangible reward in that your name becomes known for those subjects and that frequently opens doors where they otherwise would not.
mrmondo 10y ago
Melbourne, Australia here. Personally as an ops engineer I'd find it _very_ easy to get another job, my guess is that if I didn't care what the job was I could get one in a day, if I wanted to wait for something decent but not fantastic I'd probably need to spend a week and a half perhaps? And for something really great - well that could be anywhere from a week to six weeks, maybe more depending on how picky I was being I'd guess? When I hear of people that can't get and job and are in IT, they're either: 1) Inexperienced and don't have the the charisma and confidence to prove they can learn things quickly. I feel sorry for these people and I hope they can learn the skills to help themselves. 2) Think they know their stuff but they're book learned, probably have some bits of paper that say they're certified in X or Y that no one cares about, I see so many people with rubbish qualifications like MCSE or CCNA etc... (note that CCNA does teach you important networking concepts but that's not its point), these people piss me off, and when they do get a job - they're the ones I don't want to have anything to do with.
superuser2 10y ago
What other field expects you to "prove yourself" in an interview? Maybe performing arts. But a cattle call is a temporally self-contained affair. One or maybe a few days. Singers get accompanists, instrumentalists get to use their instruments. The selection to be performed at an audition is representative of the role. You don't hire a jazz pianist by asking him to sight-read Bach and demonstrate the fingering on an imaginary violin. (Could an all-around virtuoso, or someone who had practiced that particular useless but impressive skill, do it reasonably well? Sure. But that's not the point). Programming is this way. But it doesn't have to be. There's education, professional licensing, portfolio, accomplishments, references, reputation, with an hour or two of interviews at the end to discuss these things in more detail and assess culture fit. Maybe a demonstration of relevant skills under realistic conditions. Not blind faith, but some trust that respectable peer institutions don't graduate or promote/retain horrifically incompetent people very often. The way professionals get hired past entry level in any other line of work. (At entry level, internships are readily available to those without much of a track record yet, and you prove yourself from there).

by pionar 10y ago

balabaster 10y ago

I can't speak to the OP's specific circumstance but when I've been in this position in the (thankfully distant) past, what was more frustrating than anything was the bureaucracy and red tape between getting in the door for an interview and finally sitting down in a paid position. When you're already unemployed and needing that pay cheque, this lead time is terrifying. You need the job now, you need to get paid yesterday, you had 5 interviews last week and every one of them appears to be dragging their heels putting a signed employment contract in front of you and your rent or mortgage payment is due tomorrow. As for "not wanting to prove yourself", you get to a point in your professional life where it's easy to feel like you've proven yourself a thousand times over with previous employment, solid references, a glowing resume, interviews with headhunters etc. and it can be frustrating when you walk in the door anew and despite 25 years of proving yourself, you once again have to redo that work. In an industry where we spend our entire lives automating away repetitive tasks, this is the one repetitive task that we just don't appear to be able to automate away... but if you don't want to go in the front door with all the other candidates, the only other way is to make a name for yourself that spans the industry: - Attend user groups - Attend conferences - Network with key people at those conferences - Become a speaker at conferences - Put up courses on Coursera, PluralSight and other big name training sites This way your name is out there, you're essentially being pre-vetted by the personnel that matter within these companies and you're already well known before you walk in the door. In essence, you're proactively interviewing. When you speak at a conference, you're effectively interviewing at every company who has staff in the room. When you run a course, you're doing the same.

mooreds 10y ago
> You need the job now, you need to get paid yesterday, you had 5 interviews last week and every one of them appears to be dragging their heels putting a signed employment contract in front of you and your rent or mortgage payment is due tomorrow. And this is where having savings and access to other assets is crucial. Otherwise this lead time will force you to take the first position that pays, rather than the position that is best. > ... but if you don't want to go in the front door with all the other candidates, the only other way is to make a name for yourself that spans the industry I'd add: - write a blog - write an e-book - give first, whether that is by networking, volunteering, or doing an open source project. All of this is high on the effort scale, but it's an investment that I've seen pay off. There are lower effort tasks you can do, including things like always be networking and sending interesting articles to friends and acquaintances. In fact, when I'm interviewing for a contract, if it doesn't work out for me, I'll often send a note to some former colleagues seeing if any of them are interested. If they are, it's a win-win for the job seeker and the employer at low cost to me.
- balabaster 10y ago
  I think your point about giving first is a very valid one. When that giving first has a broad reach, aside from the rewarding aspect (particularly with regards to authoring blogs/books/courses) of allowing you to reflect, focus your mind on what you're trying to teach (which often helps crystallize a topic in your own mind), there is a more tangible reward in that your name becomes known for those subjects and that frequently opens doors where they otherwise would not.

mrmondo 10y ago

Melbourne, Australia here. Personally as an ops engineer I'd find it _very_ easy to get another job, my guess is that if I didn't care what the job was I could get one in a day, if I wanted to wait for something decent but not fantastic I'd probably need to spend a week and a half perhaps? And for something really great - well that could be anywhere from a week to six weeks, maybe more depending on how picky I was being I'd guess? When I hear of people that can't get and job and are in IT, they're either: 1) Inexperienced and don't have the the charisma and confidence to prove they can learn things quickly. I feel sorry for these people and I hope they can learn the skills to help themselves. 2) Think they know their stuff but they're book learned, probably have some bits of paper that say they're certified in X or Y that no one cares about, I see so many people with rubbish qualifications like MCSE or CCNA etc... (note that CCNA does teach you important networking concepts but that's not its point), these people piss me off, and when they do get a job - they're the ones I don't want to have anything to do with.

superuser2 10y ago

What other field expects you to "prove yourself" in an interview? Maybe performing arts. But a cattle call is a temporally self-contained affair. One or maybe a few days. Singers get accompanists, instrumentalists get to use their instruments. The selection to be performed at an audition is representative of the role. You don't hire a jazz pianist by asking him to sight-read Bach and demonstrate the fingering on an imaginary violin. (Could an all-around virtuoso, or someone who had practiced that particular useless but impressive skill, do it reasonably well? Sure. But that's not the point). Programming is this way. But it doesn't have to be. There's education, professional licensing, portfolio, accomplishments, references, reputation, with an hour or two of interviews at the end to discuss these things in more detail and assess culture fit. Maybe a demonstration of relevant skills under realistic conditions. Not blind faith, but some trust that respectable peer institutions don't graduate or promote/retain horrifically incompetent people very often. The way professionals get hired past entry level in any other line of work. (At entry level, internships are readily available to those without much of a track record yet, and you prove yourself from there).