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I actually have no problem with those fines but they should be enforcing the 1m rule as well. Why wouldn't you wear a helmet as a cyclist anyway? It sucks tha

I actually have no problem with those fines but they should be enforcing the 1m rule as well. Why wouldn't you wear a helmet as a cyclist anyway? It sucks that NSWPolice are more interested in fining cyclists and are ignoring people actually putting other people's lives in danger. When I drive and I see people riding with no helmet, I can't help but think to myself, "well you obviously don't care about your own safety at all, why should I?" As a cyclist, I cringe when I see other cyclists breaking road rules. There is already much too little respect for us on the road, and doing stuff like that will erode the little respect we do get.

snovv_crash 10y ago
>Why wouldn't you wear a helmet as a cyclist anyway? Because a dinky bicycle helmet won't change anything if you are hit by a car. Even a motorcycle helmet won't help. The only time a helmet helps is in low speed accidents.
- tempestn 10y ago
  I believe this is directly contradicted by the statistical evidence. I'll see if I can find a reference... Edit: you are correct that at high speeds (over 50km/h) bike helmets become less effective when hit by a car. However, many car/bike accidents occur at speeds below 50km/h, in which case helmets can and do save lives. [1] One could make a similar statement to yours regarding any safety device. A seatbelt probably won't save me if I hit a truck going 120km/h in my car. But it will help in a lot of other situations, so I'll still wear it. [1] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/experts-prove-cycle-helmets-can-6581142 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/experts-prove-cycle-hel...
  - bigiain 10y ago
    I'm not exactly Lance Armstrong, so I can barely make it to 25km/h on my bicycle (without a good tailwind or a downhill run) and I certainly can't maintain it for long. What's the bottom end of that effectiveness curve look like? It's 100% clear that helmets have zero effectiveness at 0km/h[1] - I bet the "effectiveness" of helmets is statistically the same a zero at 1km/h and 3km/h as well - where's the data that shows the shape of that curve? How does that compare with various categories of cycling? I note that what the linked study/article "proves" is that if you have a crash in which you might die, a helmet will improve your outcome in some of those cases. To me that has (at least) two obvious responses: 1) wear a helmet, or 2) don't have those sorts of crashes. Me pedalling to the shops or the cafe at 10-15km/h on cycle paths or quiet backstreets is enormously safer than me riding at 25km/h on a busy or main road, or on a downhill mountain bike course - with or without a helmet. Why to "the helmet guys" get to choose which risk minimisation strategy I'm required to employ? [1] to be more accurate, the benefits of having a helmet on while stationary on a bicycle are no different from the benefits of having a helmet on while standing still - something the safety-crats haven't (yet) suggested is necessary...)
    - pricechild 10y ago
      I suspect the speed is the closing speed between the cyclist and whatever they hit? Reading the article, it is unclear and might even be solely the speed of the car. Maybe best to try and find the original paper to clarify that one. EDIT: http://bast.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2013/692/pdf/41_Than.pdf http://bast.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2013/692/pdf/41_Than.p... looks relevant, but I can't see the claims repeated in e.g. the Mirror article.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- m0nty 10y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY Anyone just blindly downvoting snovv_crash should check out the video above and any number of other resources, such as this one: http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/cycle-helmets http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/cyc... There are strong feelings on both sides, but many cyclists feel helmets are a distraction from the real issues which make cyclists unsafe: poor road design and unsafe driving. Cycling itself is (counter-intuitively) a very safe activity which looks dangerous; everyone assumes driving and walking are safe but often they are not. Yet nobody seriously proposes helmets for pedestrians or drivers, just cyclists.
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    How is walking not safe?
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Pollution and idiot car drivers.
    - m0nty 10y ago
      You don't have to look far: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359012/indicator-table.xls https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... [XLS] That's 8,643 pedestrians killed between 2000 and 2013 on UK roads. It's not even solely when people are crossing the road: cars frequently mount the pavement (sidewalk) and kill pedestrians.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  A bicycle helmet changes the probabilities significantly towards survival, in all crash types. In majority of bicycle deaths, the most serious injuries are to the head, and the "dinky" helmet is what makes a difference. A large majority of bicycle deaths are low speed accidents. (Over here (Finland) a majority of them actually does not even involve a motor vehicle; here we have a pretty good segregated bike/pedestrian route network.)
  - bigiain 10y ago
    "Significantly" "in all crash types"? That's not what the evidence I've seen suggests. Nor does it align with my personal anec-data. In all the crashes I can remember having in the last decade on a bicycle (nearly all failing to unclip when stopping or failing to negotiate an obstacle at low speed) I've never even touched my bicycle helmet (or head, if nt wearing one) to the ground. There's quite a few studies recently that've revealed quite glaring errors in the claims that bicycle helmets reduce injuries in any significant fashion for typical cyclists. Sure you'd be foolish doind a mountain stage of the Tour de France without a helmet - but for a typical non-heavily-trafficed-commute or a weekend ride-in-the-park - there's very few accidents where a helmet makes any statistcal difference. I also recall recently reading a study that calculated the overall benefit of bicycle helmet laws were negative when the reduction in cyclists was taken into account, and it's resultant lower level of public health. Have stringent helmet laws, and fewer people ride bicycles; fewer people riding bicycles results in more overweight/unfit people. Nett cost to health system goes up, not down. I will never question your choice to wear a helmet - either always or occasionally. I do question your motives for supporting the establishment to _require_ (with threats of punitive fines) me to wear one, without conclusive and in-controversial evidence that it is of statistically significant benefit _to the sort of riding I do_... If you want to "lowest common denominator" the argument - explain to me why you don't wear a helmet with driving/riding in a car? Have a guess as to what the most serious injuries in cases of automotive deaths are…
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      For a typical non-heavily-trafficed-commute or a weekend ride-in-the-park - there's very few accidents. When there's an accident, the helmet makes a difference. "It seems intuitive that bicycle helmets would be an effective means of reducing head injury, and indeed helmet manufacturers and standards associations worldwide conduct rigorous tests to determine the impact absorption and other qualities of helmets. It is however, important to go beyond laboratory tests and understand whether helmets reduce injuries in the event of a crash in real‐life; hence the review by Thompson et al.1 This review included five well conducted case‐control studies and found that helmets provide a 63–88% reduction in the risk of head, brain and severe brain injury for all ages of bicyclists. Helmets were found to provide equal levels of protection for crashes involving motor vehicles (69%) and crashes from all other causes (68%). Furthermore, injuries to the upper and mid facial areas were found to be reduced by 65%, although helmets did not prevent lower facial injuries. The review authors concluded that bicycle helmets are an effective means of preventing head injury." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598379/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598379/ And then my personal anecdata: 25 years ago I went over the bar as I hit the brakes to stop before a child that ran to the cycle path from a bush. I broke my radix but not my head - I did not have a helmet. I realized how lucky I had been. I started to wear the helmet. Last winter I fell when I didn't notice ice on my home road. Before I could unclip, I was falling sideways. I bruised my ribs and hit my head on the ground, but avoided cracking my skull because I did have on my helmet that I've been wearing the 25 years since the previous bone breaking fall. Don't be stupid. Wear helmet when riding bike.
- pedalpete 10y ago
  A bicycle helmet is not designed to protect your head from the impact of a car. It may try, but your helmet would have to be huge. A bike helmet is made to slide across the pavement in the event of a crash. This allows you to decelerate at a slower pace and minimize damage. Think of a bike helmet more like a ski helmet. It protects you from the ground, and will do very little if you ski into a tower. http://www.bhsi.org/mips.htm http://www.bhsi.org/mips.htm
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  That's totally incorrect. You could be sideswiped by a car, lose your balance and fall onto the ground. Yes, a helmet won't help if you have a full-frontal collision with a car going at 100km/h, but there are many situations (most situations?) where that isn't the case and a helmet will help.
techdragon 10y ago
It's quite obvious why the helmet issue is so well enforced... It's extremely easy to pull over a cyclist! Compared to a car that is.
- flukus 10y ago
  > It's extremely easy to pull over a cyclist! Compared to a car that is. It's also quite easy to take a bike through a park or somewhere a car can't go and get away...
pmyjavec 10y ago
I used to live in Sydney and commute daily by bike. Now live in Amsterdam and I've never have worn a helmet, along with what seems like 99% of the locals. I now realise the helmet thing is mainly about cars and just the way one needs to ride in Sydney to survive. Lanes end abruptly, major pot holes in roads etc. It's anecdotal but you get the feeling progress and freedom is not really Australia's strong point these days!
- bigiain 10y ago
  That is true - but _only_ for some types of bicycle rides. I can get from my place to the local shopping centre, a bunch of cafes or pubs, and the Cook's River bike path - all without needing to ride in "traffic" or on major (or even busy) roads. The chance of a helmet providing _any_ safety benefit for me riding to do my grocery shopping, is about as high as the benefit of me wearing a helmet while _driving_ a car to the shopping centre. (And don't think I'm completely anti-helmet - I also ride motorcycles and wear a helmet 100% of the time on that, only _mostly_ because it's the law.)
bigiain 10y ago
Because I'm a grown up who can evaluate the risks/benefits for myself, and I'm sick to death of nanny-state victim-blaming resulting in erosion of rights and freedom? When you drive - do you wear a helmet? Why not?
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  I don't wear a helmet when I drive because when I'm driving I'm strapped inside a steel cage that does a very good job of protecting me in the case of a collision. I do wear a helmet when I'm on a bike, not because of nanny-state laws, but because many drivers drive in the manner of someone with the luxury of being complacent because they are strapped inside a steel cage that does a very good job of protecting them in the case of a collision.
tonyedgecombe 10y ago
Isn't there evidence that drivers give you more room if you don't wear a helmet.
- collyw 10y ago
  http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-helmets-attract-cars-to-cyclists/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-h...
- m0nty 10y ago
  This oft-quoted study at the University of Bath in England: http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906.html http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906... I'd like to see a more extensive study, although my own experience of using a helmet and hi-viz clothing seems to confirm, some motorists see the gear and think "experienced cyclist, I can pass closer".
collyw 10y ago
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-helmets-attract-cars-to-cyclists/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-h...

snovv_crash 10y ago

>Why wouldn't you wear a helmet as a cyclist anyway? Because a dinky bicycle helmet won't change anything if you are hit by a car. Even a motorcycle helmet won't help. The only time a helmet helps is in low speed accidents.

tempestn 10y ago
I believe this is directly contradicted by the statistical evidence. I'll see if I can find a reference... Edit: you are correct that at high speeds (over 50km/h) bike helmets become less effective when hit by a car. However, many car/bike accidents occur at speeds below 50km/h, in which case helmets can and do save lives. [1] One could make a similar statement to yours regarding any safety device. A seatbelt probably won't save me if I hit a truck going 120km/h in my car. But it will help in a lot of other situations, so I'll still wear it. [1] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/experts-prove-cycle-helmets-can-6581142 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/experts-prove-cycle-hel...
- bigiain 10y ago
  I'm not exactly Lance Armstrong, so I can barely make it to 25km/h on my bicycle (without a good tailwind or a downhill run) and I certainly can't maintain it for long. What's the bottom end of that effectiveness curve look like? It's 100% clear that helmets have zero effectiveness at 0km/h[1] - I bet the "effectiveness" of helmets is statistically the same a zero at 1km/h and 3km/h as well - where's the data that shows the shape of that curve? How does that compare with various categories of cycling? I note that what the linked study/article "proves" is that if you have a crash in which you might die, a helmet will improve your outcome in some of those cases. To me that has (at least) two obvious responses: 1) wear a helmet, or 2) don't have those sorts of crashes. Me pedalling to the shops or the cafe at 10-15km/h on cycle paths or quiet backstreets is enormously safer than me riding at 25km/h on a busy or main road, or on a downhill mountain bike course - with or without a helmet. Why to "the helmet guys" get to choose which risk minimisation strategy I'm required to employ? [1] to be more accurate, the benefits of having a helmet on while stationary on a bicycle are no different from the benefits of having a helmet on while standing still - something the safety-crats haven't (yet) suggested is necessary...)
  - pricechild 10y ago
    I suspect the speed is the closing speed between the cyclist and whatever they hit? Reading the article, it is unclear and might even be solely the speed of the car. Maybe best to try and find the original paper to clarify that one. EDIT: http://bast.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2013/692/pdf/41_Than.pdf http://bast.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2013/692/pdf/41_Than.p... looks relevant, but I can't see the claims repeated in e.g. the Mirror article.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
m0nty 10y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY Anyone just blindly downvoting snovv_crash should check out the video above and any number of other resources, such as this one: http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/cycle-helmets http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/cyc... There are strong feelings on both sides, but many cyclists feel helmets are a distraction from the real issues which make cyclists unsafe: poor road design and unsafe driving. Cycling itself is (counter-intuitively) a very safe activity which looks dangerous; everyone assumes driving and walking are safe but often they are not. Yet nobody seriously proposes helmets for pedestrians or drivers, just cyclists.
- infinite8s 10y ago
  How is walking not safe?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Pollution and idiot car drivers.
  - m0nty 10y ago
    You don't have to look far: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359012/indicator-table.xls https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... [XLS] That's 8,643 pedestrians killed between 2000 and 2013 on UK roads. It's not even solely when people are crossing the road: cars frequently mount the pavement (sidewalk) and kill pedestrians.
ptaipale 10y ago
A bicycle helmet changes the probabilities significantly towards survival, in all crash types. In majority of bicycle deaths, the most serious injuries are to the head, and the "dinky" helmet is what makes a difference. A large majority of bicycle deaths are low speed accidents. (Over here (Finland) a majority of them actually does not even involve a motor vehicle; here we have a pretty good segregated bike/pedestrian route network.)
- bigiain 10y ago
  "Significantly" "in all crash types"? That's not what the evidence I've seen suggests. Nor does it align with my personal anec-data. In all the crashes I can remember having in the last decade on a bicycle (nearly all failing to unclip when stopping or failing to negotiate an obstacle at low speed) I've never even touched my bicycle helmet (or head, if nt wearing one) to the ground. There's quite a few studies recently that've revealed quite glaring errors in the claims that bicycle helmets reduce injuries in any significant fashion for typical cyclists. Sure you'd be foolish doind a mountain stage of the Tour de France without a helmet - but for a typical non-heavily-trafficed-commute or a weekend ride-in-the-park - there's very few accidents where a helmet makes any statistcal difference. I also recall recently reading a study that calculated the overall benefit of bicycle helmet laws were negative when the reduction in cyclists was taken into account, and it's resultant lower level of public health. Have stringent helmet laws, and fewer people ride bicycles; fewer people riding bicycles results in more overweight/unfit people. Nett cost to health system goes up, not down. I will never question your choice to wear a helmet - either always or occasionally. I do question your motives for supporting the establishment to _require_ (with threats of punitive fines) me to wear one, without conclusive and in-controversial evidence that it is of statistically significant benefit _to the sort of riding I do_... If you want to "lowest common denominator" the argument - explain to me why you don't wear a helmet with driving/riding in a car? Have a guess as to what the most serious injuries in cases of automotive deaths are…
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    For a typical non-heavily-trafficed-commute or a weekend ride-in-the-park - there's very few accidents. When there's an accident, the helmet makes a difference. "It seems intuitive that bicycle helmets would be an effective means of reducing head injury, and indeed helmet manufacturers and standards associations worldwide conduct rigorous tests to determine the impact absorption and other qualities of helmets. It is however, important to go beyond laboratory tests and understand whether helmets reduce injuries in the event of a crash in real‐life; hence the review by Thompson et al.1 This review included five well conducted case‐control studies and found that helmets provide a 63–88% reduction in the risk of head, brain and severe brain injury for all ages of bicyclists. Helmets were found to provide equal levels of protection for crashes involving motor vehicles (69%) and crashes from all other causes (68%). Furthermore, injuries to the upper and mid facial areas were found to be reduced by 65%, although helmets did not prevent lower facial injuries. The review authors concluded that bicycle helmets are an effective means of preventing head injury." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598379/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598379/ And then my personal anecdata: 25 years ago I went over the bar as I hit the brakes to stop before a child that ran to the cycle path from a bush. I broke my radix but not my head - I did not have a helmet. I realized how lucky I had been. I started to wear the helmet. Last winter I fell when I didn't notice ice on my home road. Before I could unclip, I was falling sideways. I bruised my ribs and hit my head on the ground, but avoided cracking my skull because I did have on my helmet that I've been wearing the 25 years since the previous bone breaking fall. Don't be stupid. Wear helmet when riding bike.
pedalpete 10y ago
A bicycle helmet is not designed to protect your head from the impact of a car. It may try, but your helmet would have to be huge. A bike helmet is made to slide across the pavement in the event of a crash. This allows you to decelerate at a slower pace and minimize damage. Think of a bike helmet more like a ski helmet. It protects you from the ground, and will do very little if you ski into a tower. http://www.bhsi.org/mips.htm http://www.bhsi.org/mips.htm
brokenmachine 10y ago
That's totally incorrect. You could be sideswiped by a car, lose your balance and fall onto the ground. Yes, a helmet won't help if you have a full-frontal collision with a car going at 100km/h, but there are many situations (most situations?) where that isn't the case and a helmet will help.

techdragon 10y ago

It's quite obvious why the helmet issue is so well enforced... It's extremely easy to pull over a cyclist! Compared to a car that is.

flukus 10y ago
> It's extremely easy to pull over a cyclist! Compared to a car that is. It's also quite easy to take a bike through a park or somewhere a car can't go and get away...

pmyjavec 10y ago

I used to live in Sydney and commute daily by bike. Now live in Amsterdam and I've never have worn a helmet, along with what seems like 99% of the locals. I now realise the helmet thing is mainly about cars and just the way one needs to ride in Sydney to survive. Lanes end abruptly, major pot holes in roads etc. It's anecdotal but you get the feeling progress and freedom is not really Australia's strong point these days!

bigiain 10y ago
That is true - but _only_ for some types of bicycle rides. I can get from my place to the local shopping centre, a bunch of cafes or pubs, and the Cook's River bike path - all without needing to ride in "traffic" or on major (or even busy) roads. The chance of a helmet providing _any_ safety benefit for me riding to do my grocery shopping, is about as high as the benefit of me wearing a helmet while _driving_ a car to the shopping centre. (And don't think I'm completely anti-helmet - I also ride motorcycles and wear a helmet 100% of the time on that, only _mostly_ because it's the law.)

bigiain 10y ago

Because I'm a grown up who can evaluate the risks/benefits for myself, and I'm sick to death of nanny-state victim-blaming resulting in erosion of rights and freedom? When you drive - do you wear a helmet? Why not?

brokenmachine 10y ago
I don't wear a helmet when I drive because when I'm driving I'm strapped inside a steel cage that does a very good job of protecting me in the case of a collision. I do wear a helmet when I'm on a bike, not because of nanny-state laws, but because many drivers drive in the manner of someone with the luxury of being complacent because they are strapped inside a steel cage that does a very good job of protecting them in the case of a collision.

tonyedgecombe 10y ago

Isn't there evidence that drivers give you more room if you don't wear a helmet.

collyw 10y ago
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-helmets-attract-cars-to-cyclists/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-h...
m0nty 10y ago
This oft-quoted study at the University of Bath in England: http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906.html http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906... I'd like to see a more extensive study, although my own experience of using a helmet and hi-viz clothing seems to confirm, some motorists see the gear and think "experienced cyclist, I can pass closer".

collyw 10y ago

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-helmets-attract-cars-to-cyclists/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-h...