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Now I cycle to work and recently let my drivers license lapse. But the 1m rule sounds draconian to me. It means drivers have to keep about two metres from the

Now I cycle to work and recently let my drivers license lapse. But the 1m rule sounds draconian to me. It means drivers have to keep about two metres from the kerb. That's not always possible on Sydney roads. Sure, if the cars are moving fast then I would like a wide space. But in heavier / slower traffic (which was the common case when I lived in London), then I only need a "lane" wide enough for me to ride through. And heck, usually I'm the one doing the overtaking.

brokenmachine 10y ago
That's the law, draconian or not. I personally don't want to come within 1m of a 1500kg vehicle, probably driven by someone playing with their phone, going faster than I am. It is possible on Sydney roads if drivers wait until there's an overtaking lane, which is actually the only legal solution. Anyway, it's never enforced so what difference does it make? Drivers will continue to only care about themselves and cyclists will continue to be maimed and die. Countries with governments that aren't crap have separate tracks for cyclists, which is really the only safe solution. We have painted pictures of bikes in car lanes right in the door zones for parked cars. And that's in the good places. It's an absolute joke.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  > Countries with governments that aren't crap have separate tracks for cyclists, It's not about crap governments. It's about practical responses to the world as it is. Now I live in Munich and enjoy riding on dedicated bike lanes. But these are built on seriously wide roads. In Sydney that space is used for other things. Such land-use decisions were locked in during the early 20th century. Now it's perfectly reasonable to think the Nazis made better land-use decisions than Labor and the UAP. But it's no use crying over spilled milk.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Copenhagen has plenty of narrow roads in the city centre. Many don't have a bike lane. If there's no room to overtake safely, most drivers simply wait.
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    So cyclists can't have safe infrastructure because of history, and also can't expect drivers to obey the road laws because of impatience. That's just great.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    > Now I live in Munich and enjoy riding on dedicated bike lanes You do realise the lanes in Munich almost certainly weren't built by the Nazis? And the layout of roads, especially major ones, will have been altered since then, and can be altered in the future? I'm not familiar with Munich, but the Netherlands got their bicycle lanes after lots of public campaigning in the 1970s [1]. In many European cities, the streets have been significantly remodelled within the 20th century. Just last month, a large road I use in Copenhagen was altered to increase the size of the bicycle lanes [3], reducing the width of the car lanes. Late last year, a road near the hospital was altered to block off parking close to a junction, which made visibility much better for everyone. London is currently building a major east-west route [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#Overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#Ove... [2] http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-geography-travel-germany-munich-theatinerstrasse-view-1950s-50s-street-16007713.html http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-geography-travel-germany-mu... [3] http://www.kk.dk/nyheder/bredere-cykelstier-i-gothersgade http://www.kk.dk/nyheder/bredere-cykelstier-i-gothersgade [4] https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/cycle-superhighway-east-west https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-proje...
    - adrianratnapala 10y ago
      I'm saying there is little relation between quality of current governments and what bicycle lanes you have. It seems to me that continental european cities often have very wide roads once you get out of the old towns. Given the location, these must have been built around the mid-20th century. By all kinds of governments.
      - Symbiote 10y ago
        There is a strong relation between current (or recent) governments and bicycle lanes. For decades, people in London said the streets were too narrow for cycling. Once the mayor declared maintaining car speeds was no longer a priority above everything else, the traffic engineers found space. I've never visited Sydney, but it seems to have plenty of wide roads — I picked some central roads at random. Oxford Street has a bus lane on either side, plus two car lanes in each direction. On StreetView, the bus lane is filled with parked cars, and appears to be also a cycle lane. Reducing the width of the car lanes, removing parking from one side, or removing one lane of traffic would provide ample space. Palmer Street has two lines of parked cars, and enough space for three lanes of cars in between. Plenty of room for a dedicated cycle lane.
prawn 10y ago
One thing that doesn't help is that there is more rubbish on roads closer to the kerb, and that items unlikely to tax a car can trouble a cyclist. So cyclists are forced further from the kerb than they might otherwise need to be. I wonder if automated streetsweepers would be efficient enough that they could run much more regularly?
luca_ing 10y ago
> But the 1m rule sounds draconian to me. Germany has even stricter rules in practice: courts have regularly decided that a minimum of 1.5m ... 2m is necessary, depending on the situation. In special cases, even up to 2.8m have been deemed necessary. BTW, even if cars don't actually touch a cyclist, but merely frighten them and cause them to react, it's already a traffic offense. Difficult to enforce in practice, of course. Details for German-speakers: https://www.adfc-nrw.de/kreisverbaende/kv-bottrop/radverkehr/verkehrsregeln/ueberholen-von-radfahrern.html https://www.adfc-nrw.de/kreisverbaende/kv-bottrop/radverkehr...
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  In Australia it's 1m for roads with a speed limit up to 60kph, and 1.5m for any road with a speed limit above that.

brokenmachine 10y ago

That's the law, draconian or not. I personally don't want to come within 1m of a 1500kg vehicle, probably driven by someone playing with their phone, going faster than I am. It is possible on Sydney roads if drivers wait until there's an overtaking lane, which is actually the only legal solution. Anyway, it's never enforced so what difference does it make? Drivers will continue to only care about themselves and cyclists will continue to be maimed and die. Countries with governments that aren't crap have separate tracks for cyclists, which is really the only safe solution. We have painted pictures of bikes in car lanes right in the door zones for parked cars. And that's in the good places. It's an absolute joke.

adrianratnapala 10y ago
> Countries with governments that aren't crap have separate tracks for cyclists, It's not about crap governments. It's about practical responses to the world as it is. Now I live in Munich and enjoy riding on dedicated bike lanes. But these are built on seriously wide roads. In Sydney that space is used for other things. Such land-use decisions were locked in during the early 20th century. Now it's perfectly reasonable to think the Nazis made better land-use decisions than Labor and the UAP. But it's no use crying over spilled milk.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  Copenhagen has plenty of narrow roads in the city centre. Many don't have a bike lane. If there's no room to overtake safely, most drivers simply wait.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  So cyclists can't have safe infrastructure because of history, and also can't expect drivers to obey the road laws because of impatience. That's just great.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  > Now I live in Munich and enjoy riding on dedicated bike lanes You do realise the lanes in Munich almost certainly weren't built by the Nazis? And the layout of roads, especially major ones, will have been altered since then, and can be altered in the future? I'm not familiar with Munich, but the Netherlands got their bicycle lanes after lots of public campaigning in the 1970s [1]. In many European cities, the streets have been significantly remodelled within the 20th century. Just last month, a large road I use in Copenhagen was altered to increase the size of the bicycle lanes [3], reducing the width of the car lanes. Late last year, a road near the hospital was altered to block off parking close to a junction, which made visibility much better for everyone. London is currently building a major east-west route [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#Overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#Ove... [2] http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-geography-travel-germany-munich-theatinerstrasse-view-1950s-50s-street-16007713.html http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-geography-travel-germany-mu... [3] http://www.kk.dk/nyheder/bredere-cykelstier-i-gothersgade http://www.kk.dk/nyheder/bredere-cykelstier-i-gothersgade [4] https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/cycle-superhighway-east-west https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-proje...
  - adrianratnapala 10y ago
    I'm saying there is little relation between quality of current governments and what bicycle lanes you have. It seems to me that continental european cities often have very wide roads once you get out of the old towns. Given the location, these must have been built around the mid-20th century. By all kinds of governments.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      There is a strong relation between current (or recent) governments and bicycle lanes. For decades, people in London said the streets were too narrow for cycling. Once the mayor declared maintaining car speeds was no longer a priority above everything else, the traffic engineers found space. I've never visited Sydney, but it seems to have plenty of wide roads — I picked some central roads at random. Oxford Street has a bus lane on either side, plus two car lanes in each direction. On StreetView, the bus lane is filled with parked cars, and appears to be also a cycle lane. Reducing the width of the car lanes, removing parking from one side, or removing one lane of traffic would provide ample space. Palmer Street has two lines of parked cars, and enough space for three lanes of cars in between. Plenty of room for a dedicated cycle lane.

prawn 10y ago

One thing that doesn't help is that there is more rubbish on roads closer to the kerb, and that items unlikely to tax a car can trouble a cyclist. So cyclists are forced further from the kerb than they might otherwise need to be. I wonder if automated streetsweepers would be efficient enough that they could run much more regularly?

luca_ing 10y ago

> But the 1m rule sounds draconian to me. Germany has even stricter rules in practice: courts have regularly decided that a minimum of 1.5m ... 2m is necessary, depending on the situation. In special cases, even up to 2.8m have been deemed necessary. BTW, even if cars don't actually touch a cyclist, but merely frighten them and cause them to react, it's already a traffic offense. Difficult to enforce in practice, of course. Details for German-speakers: https://www.adfc-nrw.de/kreisverbaende/kv-bottrop/radverkehr/verkehrsregeln/ueberholen-von-radfahrern.html https://www.adfc-nrw.de/kreisverbaende/kv-bottrop/radverkehr...

brokenmachine 10y ago
In Australia it's 1m for roads with a speed limit up to 60kph, and 1.5m for any road with a speed limit above that.