5 ms·

I think it's more of "systemd has this ridiculous bug! More proof that it is the end as we know it!" I really dislike systemd as much as the next person, but t

I think it's more of "systemd has this ridiculous bug! More proof that it is the end as we know it!" I really dislike systemd as much as the next person, but this is not an issue with systemd as far as the maintainers know.

snaky 10y ago
ok, dbus has this ridiculous bug, triggering crazy systemd behaviour, more proof that both of dbus and systemd are best new shiny things since sliced bread.
bitwize 10y ago
But systemd relies on dbus; indeed, a major reason for its existence is to dbusify every aspect of your system. And the fact that dbus, which has been around for ages, is still exhibiting strange behavior like this does not bode well for the reliability of such a system. The whole fd.o ball of mud is well beyond the complexity threshold. It's a pain in the ass to attempt to even understand the workings of, let alone maintain. Expect to see minor to moderate shitshows like this every few months or so, and box-breaking flagdays when the maintainers decide they don't like the current interface and throw it out to write a brand new one.
- snaky 10y ago
  In Gentoo dbus is enabled by default only on desktop profiles, and even there it may be disabled completely by one USE-flag.
  - JdeBP 10y ago
    So what happens when you disable Desktop Bus and use systemd?
    - pdkl95 10y ago
      You cannot install systemd without dbus, which must be built with USE=systemd. eb=/usr/portage/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-226-r2.ebuild grep sys-apps/dbus "${eb}" | grep '\[systemd\]' PDEPEND=">=sys-apps/dbus-1.6.8-r1:0[systemd] Gentoo with USE=-systemd (explicitly disabled) continues to use OpenRC which is included by default in the standard install process.
    - snaky 10y ago
      systemd has no dependency to dbus, even in Ubunutu it's just recommended[1] - the fact that recommended dependencies in Ubuntu are installed by default is another story. In Gentoo it's the same[2], PDEPEND means soft-dependencies like plugins[3], with the difference they are not installed by default. [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1480451 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/14804... [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-231.ebuild#n76 https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/syst... [3] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/ https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        So effectively the only configuration that makes sense for leaving out dbus would be if you want to use systemd as the host for a stack of containers (hello CoreOS). Anything more complicated and you get dbus coming along for the ride, no ifs or buts about it. As Ford put it: you can get the model T in any color, as long as it's black.
        snaky 10y ago
        The perfect configuration is when you disable systemd and dbus, and even udev (replacing it with eudev or better mdev).
      - pdkl95 10y ago
        > PDEPEND means soft-dependencies like plugins You might want to read the docs again: $ man 5 ebuild | grep -A 4 '^ *PDEPEND' PDEPEND This should contain a list of all packages that should be merged after this one (aka post merge dependencies), but which may be installed by the package manager at any time, if that is not possible. This is in your [3]: https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/#post-merge-dependencies https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/#... > systemd has no dependency to dbus Last time I heard anything about it, systemd was so tightly coupled to dbus it would crash PID 1 if you restarted dbus and hang the system. Maybe that's changed? I doubt it given Lennart's explanation (which, by the way, includes the claim that "D-Bus is rock solid these days"). https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-January/008456.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-Ja...

snaky 10y ago

ok, dbus has this ridiculous bug, triggering crazy systemd behaviour, more proof that both of dbus and systemd are best new shiny things since sliced bread.

bitwize 10y ago

But systemd relies on dbus; indeed, a major reason for its existence is to dbusify every aspect of your system. And the fact that dbus, which has been around for ages, is still exhibiting strange behavior like this does not bode well for the reliability of such a system. The whole fd.o ball of mud is well beyond the complexity threshold. It's a pain in the ass to attempt to even understand the workings of, let alone maintain. Expect to see minor to moderate shitshows like this every few months or so, and box-breaking flagdays when the maintainers decide they don't like the current interface and throw it out to write a brand new one.

snaky 10y ago
In Gentoo dbus is enabled by default only on desktop profiles, and even there it may be disabled completely by one USE-flag.
- JdeBP 10y ago
  So what happens when you disable Desktop Bus and use systemd?
  - pdkl95 10y ago
    You cannot install systemd without dbus, which must be built with USE=systemd. eb=/usr/portage/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-226-r2.ebuild grep sys-apps/dbus "${eb}" | grep '\[systemd\]' PDEPEND=">=sys-apps/dbus-1.6.8-r1:0[systemd] Gentoo with USE=-systemd (explicitly disabled) continues to use OpenRC which is included by default in the standard install process.
  - snaky 10y ago
    systemd has no dependency to dbus, even in Ubunutu it's just recommended[1] - the fact that recommended dependencies in Ubuntu are installed by default is another story. In Gentoo it's the same[2], PDEPEND means soft-dependencies like plugins[3], with the difference they are not installed by default. [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1480451 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/14804... [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-231.ebuild#n76 https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/syst... [3] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/ https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      So effectively the only configuration that makes sense for leaving out dbus would be if you want to use systemd as the host for a stack of containers (hello CoreOS). Anything more complicated and you get dbus coming along for the ride, no ifs or buts about it. As Ford put it: you can get the model T in any color, as long as it's black.
      - snaky 10y ago
        The perfect configuration is when you disable systemd and dbus, and even udev (replacing it with eudev or better mdev).
    - pdkl95 10y ago
      > PDEPEND means soft-dependencies like plugins You might want to read the docs again: $ man 5 ebuild | grep -A 4 '^ *PDEPEND' PDEPEND This should contain a list of all packages that should be merged after this one (aka post merge dependencies), but which may be installed by the package manager at any time, if that is not possible. This is in your [3]: https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/#post-merge-dependencies https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/#... > systemd has no dependency to dbus Last time I heard anything about it, systemd was so tightly coupled to dbus it would crash PID 1 if you restarted dbus and hang the system. Maybe that's changed? I doubt it given Lennart's explanation (which, by the way, includes the claim that "D-Bus is rock solid these days"). https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-January/008456.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-Ja...