9 ms·

It looks like it's an issue with dbus queueing connections, and systemd's interaction triggering an edge case. Are we really just posting bugs in widely-used s

It looks like it's an issue with dbus queueing connections, and systemd's interaction triggering an edge case. Are we really just posting bugs in widely-used software now?

hyperion2010 10y ago
Nah, just shistemd.
xiao_bai 10y ago
I think it's more of "systemd has this ridiculous bug! More proof that it is the end as we know it!" I really dislike systemd as much as the next person, but this is not an issue with systemd as far as the maintainers know.
- snaky 10y ago
  ok, dbus has this ridiculous bug, triggering crazy systemd behaviour, more proof that both of dbus and systemd are best new shiny things since sliced bread.
- bitwize 10y ago
  But systemd relies on dbus; indeed, a major reason for its existence is to dbusify every aspect of your system. And the fact that dbus, which has been around for ages, is still exhibiting strange behavior like this does not bode well for the reliability of such a system. The whole fd.o ball of mud is well beyond the complexity threshold. It's a pain in the ass to attempt to even understand the workings of, let alone maintain. Expect to see minor to moderate shitshows like this every few months or so, and box-breaking flagdays when the maintainers decide they don't like the current interface and throw it out to write a brand new one.
  - snaky 10y ago
    In Gentoo dbus is enabled by default only on desktop profiles, and even there it may be disabled completely by one USE-flag.
    - JdeBP 10y ago
      So what happens when you disable Desktop Bus and use systemd?
      - pdkl95 10y ago
        You cannot install systemd without dbus, which must be built with USE=systemd. eb=/usr/portage/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-226-r2.ebuild grep sys-apps/dbus "${eb}" | grep '\[systemd\]' PDEPEND=">=sys-apps/dbus-1.6.8-r1:0[systemd] Gentoo with USE=-systemd (explicitly disabled) continues to use OpenRC which is included by default in the standard install process.
      - snaky 10y ago
        systemd has no dependency to dbus, even in Ubunutu it's just recommended[1] - the fact that recommended dependencies in Ubuntu are installed by default is another story. In Gentoo it's the same[2], PDEPEND means soft-dependencies like plugins[3], with the difference they are not installed by default. [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1480451 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/14804... [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-231.ebuild#n76 https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/syst... [3] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/ https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/
        digi_owl 10y ago
        So effectively the only configuration that makes sense for leaving out dbus would be if you want to use systemd as the host for a stack of containers (hello CoreOS). Anything more complicated and you get dbus coming along for the ride, no ifs or buts about it. As Ford put it: you can get the model T in any color, as long as it's black.
        snaky 10y ago
        The perfect configuration is when you disable systemd and dbus, and even udev (replacing it with eudev or better mdev).
sesutton 10y ago
It's so HN can have its 2 minutes of hate against systemd. A systemd dev opening a GitHub issue[1] was enough to get 194 votes and 284 comments. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11797075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11797075
- Natsu 10y ago
  It can also be because people want others to know that they're not alone when they see strange delays when logging into production systems and there's a fix for it that you probably want to know about.
  - ivank 10y ago
    Yes, that is in fact why I submitted it. It took a while to figure out it wasn't happening just because my server was overloaded.
- merb 10y ago
  both sides are really toxic here. that's a problem. even a compile time switch was not feasible for tmux (to enable pam). while systemd still lacks a good api design that is close to daemon(). in a world with so much communication we should at least try to work together..
  - jononor 10y ago
    Why is something like daemon() needed with systemd? Typically you just run your process as if it was in the foreground, and systemd handles the rest. What do you lose?
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      Tmux, GNU Screen, nohup, detach...
      - creshal 10y ago
        Unless you change a single config setting in systemd. Which distributions already do for you.

It looks like it's an issue with dbus queueing connections, and systemd's interaction triggering an edge case. Are we really just posting bugs in widely-used software now?

hyperion2010 10y ago

Nah, just shistemd.

xiao_bai 10y ago

I think it's more of "systemd has this ridiculous bug! More proof that it is the end as we know it!" I really dislike systemd as much as the next person, but this is not an issue with systemd as far as the maintainers know.

snaky 10y ago
ok, dbus has this ridiculous bug, triggering crazy systemd behaviour, more proof that both of dbus and systemd are best new shiny things since sliced bread.
bitwize 10y ago
But systemd relies on dbus; indeed, a major reason for its existence is to dbusify every aspect of your system. And the fact that dbus, which has been around for ages, is still exhibiting strange behavior like this does not bode well for the reliability of such a system. The whole fd.o ball of mud is well beyond the complexity threshold. It's a pain in the ass to attempt to even understand the workings of, let alone maintain. Expect to see minor to moderate shitshows like this every few months or so, and box-breaking flagdays when the maintainers decide they don't like the current interface and throw it out to write a brand new one.
- snaky 10y ago
  In Gentoo dbus is enabled by default only on desktop profiles, and even there it may be disabled completely by one USE-flag.
  - JdeBP 10y ago
    So what happens when you disable Desktop Bus and use systemd?
    - pdkl95 10y ago
      You cannot install systemd without dbus, which must be built with USE=systemd. eb=/usr/portage/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-226-r2.ebuild grep sys-apps/dbus "${eb}" | grep '\[systemd\]' PDEPEND=">=sys-apps/dbus-1.6.8-r1:0[systemd] Gentoo with USE=-systemd (explicitly disabled) continues to use OpenRC which is included by default in the standard install process.
    - snaky 10y ago
      systemd has no dependency to dbus, even in Ubunutu it's just recommended[1] - the fact that recommended dependencies in Ubuntu are installed by default is another story. In Gentoo it's the same[2], PDEPEND means soft-dependencies like plugins[3], with the difference they are not installed by default. [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1480451 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/14804... [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-231.ebuild#n76 https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-apps/syst... [3] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/ https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        So effectively the only configuration that makes sense for leaving out dbus would be if you want to use systemd as the host for a stack of containers (hello CoreOS). Anything more complicated and you get dbus coming along for the ride, no ifs or buts about it. As Ford put it: you can get the model T in any color, as long as it's black.
        snaky 10y ago
        The perfect configuration is when you disable systemd and dbus, and even udev (replacing it with eudev or better mdev).

sesutton 10y ago

It's so HN can have its 2 minutes of hate against systemd. A systemd dev opening a GitHub issue[1] was enough to get 194 votes and 284 comments. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11797075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11797075

Natsu 10y ago
It can also be because people want others to know that they're not alone when they see strange delays when logging into production systems and there's a fix for it that you probably want to know about.
- ivank 10y ago
  Yes, that is in fact why I submitted it. It took a while to figure out it wasn't happening just because my server was overloaded.
merb 10y ago
both sides are really toxic here. that's a problem. even a compile time switch was not feasible for tmux (to enable pam). while systemd still lacks a good api design that is close to daemon(). in a world with so much communication we should at least try to work together..
- jononor 10y ago
  Why is something like daemon() needed with systemd? Typically you just run your process as if it was in the foreground, and systemd handles the rest. What do you lose?
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Tmux, GNU Screen, nohup, detach...
    - creshal 10y ago
      Unless you change a single config setting in systemd. Which distributions already do for you.