4 ms·

Yes, the myth of placebo buttons continues unabated. Maybe that's a NYC thing. I know plenty of crosswalks in SF and LA areas where if you don't press the butto

Yes, the myth of placebo buttons continues unabated. Maybe that's a NYC thing. I know plenty of crosswalks in SF and LA areas where if you don't press the button it will never say walk. Also, here in Japan nearly all elevator close buttons work instantly

delinka 10y ago
"Myth"? You have certainly not debunked ChuckMcM's detailed hypotheses about the reasons a placebo device exists. San Francisco, Los Angeles and (presumably all of) Japan are not indicative of much of the rest of the planet. There's still Chicago, Berlin, England (encompassing London), Brazil, Beijing...
- jcrawfordor 10y ago
  I don't think the burden of proof goes quite this way around, as every claim I've seen that crosswalk buttons do nothing has always been specifically about NYC. This seems to be a "fun fact" about a particular situation in NYC that everyone just started to repeat as if it was true everywhere.
  - delinka 10y ago
    I have yet to see a 'working' crosswalk button in my nearest (non-NYC) metropolis. This would be because every light-controlled intersection I traverse on foot is on a programmed loop. Reliably, the crosswalk lights go to "walk" a second before the parallel street goes green. This happens five seconds after the perpendicular direction goes all red. That's not to say that sensor-controlled intersections which take the crosswalk button into consideration do not exist- there are far too many intersections which I haven't the time nor the inclination to tour. Ultimately, my point is this: simply because all the media on placebo buttons dwells on New York City does not mean similar devices don't exist elsewhere. I bet here, folks just don't care; they press a button and eventually get through a light.
    - robocat 10y ago
      "Programmed loop" has little to do with whether buttons work or not. A button can speed up the cycle, similar to induction loops on low traffic density intersections (or that sometimes only work at night).
      - Animats 10y ago
        Behavior may be very different during low-traffic periods. During busy periods, it's important to keep synchronization with nearby intersections. During off-peak periods, many traffic lights go to an on-demand mode, skipping directions where no traffic or pedestrians are waiting. The standard modes are called "pre-timed", "partially actuated", and "fully actuated".[1] In pre-timed mode, the pedestrian buttons don't do anything, but there's a WALK period somewhere in the cycle. In "fully actuated", you never get a WALK without pushing the button. [1] http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop06006/chapter_7.htm http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop06006/chapter_7....
      - delinka 10y ago
        My sincerest apologies for not specifying "pre-timed" as intended.
- TillE 10y ago
  > England (encompassing London) Definitely not all of England. I was just in Greater Manchester, where the press of a button would often instantly change the light.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Both cases exist in Britain. Independent crossings use the button, but crossings that are part of a road junction may ignore it.
  - delinka 10y ago
    I have not suggested that any particular functionality (or lack thereof) exits in any particular place. I have, however, suggested a limited list of places not include in San Francisco, Los Angeles, the City of New York, and Japan.
  - corobo 10y ago
    In the middle of nowhere (Stafford, England) we have a mix of the lot. Here we have standard crossings that will never be anything but green (for traffic) without a button press. There's also T-junctions here that toggle between multiple roads that insert a pedestrian crossing into the cycle when the button is pressed, otherwise they'll just toggle between the roads as normal. Then we also have Y-junctions where the pedestrian light is green when the opposite road light is green. The buttons might speed up the cycle there but I've never seen any evidence of it doing so.
sitharus 10y ago
In New Zealand most of the pedestrian crossings don't show any lights until someone pushes the button. Occasionally someone will stand at the lights staring at a completely unilluminated crossing light until someone else pushes the button. Handily it means if the light is on it will change.
- phire 10y ago
  Yeah, the 'don't walk' light doesn't illuminate until you press the button, there are even some pedestrian only lights where you must both press the button and stay standing on a mat, otherwise the light will not change. I've never seen a traffic light in New Zealand that won't change it cycle in some way during at least some part of the day when that button is pressed. During peak hours there are many traffic lights where the cycle doesn't change at all when you press the button, other than show the walk. Most other traffic lights modify their cycle slightly, with red turning lights to prevent drivers from turning across the crossing pedestrians. The button is only truly important outside of peak hours, when the traffic lights operate on sensors. And the cycles for cars are often so short that a pedestrians can't actually cross the road in time. So pressing the button not long makes the cycle change, but lengthens the cycle.

delinka 10y ago

"Myth"? You have certainly not debunked ChuckMcM's detailed hypotheses about the reasons a placebo device exists. San Francisco, Los Angeles and (presumably all of) Japan are not indicative of much of the rest of the planet. There's still Chicago, Berlin, England (encompassing London), Brazil, Beijing...

jcrawfordor 10y ago
I don't think the burden of proof goes quite this way around, as every claim I've seen that crosswalk buttons do nothing has always been specifically about NYC. This seems to be a "fun fact" about a particular situation in NYC that everyone just started to repeat as if it was true everywhere.
- delinka 10y ago
  I have yet to see a 'working' crosswalk button in my nearest (non-NYC) metropolis. This would be because every light-controlled intersection I traverse on foot is on a programmed loop. Reliably, the crosswalk lights go to "walk" a second before the parallel street goes green. This happens five seconds after the perpendicular direction goes all red. That's not to say that sensor-controlled intersections which take the crosswalk button into consideration do not exist- there are far too many intersections which I haven't the time nor the inclination to tour. Ultimately, my point is this: simply because all the media on placebo buttons dwells on New York City does not mean similar devices don't exist elsewhere. I bet here, folks just don't care; they press a button and eventually get through a light.
  - robocat 10y ago
    "Programmed loop" has little to do with whether buttons work or not. A button can speed up the cycle, similar to induction loops on low traffic density intersections (or that sometimes only work at night).
    - Animats 10y ago
      Behavior may be very different during low-traffic periods. During busy periods, it's important to keep synchronization with nearby intersections. During off-peak periods, many traffic lights go to an on-demand mode, skipping directions where no traffic or pedestrians are waiting. The standard modes are called "pre-timed", "partially actuated", and "fully actuated".[1] In pre-timed mode, the pedestrian buttons don't do anything, but there's a WALK period somewhere in the cycle. In "fully actuated", you never get a WALK without pushing the button. [1] http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop06006/chapter_7.htm http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop06006/chapter_7....
    - delinka 10y ago
      My sincerest apologies for not specifying "pre-timed" as intended.
TillE 10y ago
> England (encompassing London) Definitely not all of England. I was just in Greater Manchester, where the press of a button would often instantly change the light.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  Both cases exist in Britain. Independent crossings use the button, but crossings that are part of a road junction may ignore it.
- delinka 10y ago
  I have not suggested that any particular functionality (or lack thereof) exits in any particular place. I have, however, suggested a limited list of places not include in San Francisco, Los Angeles, the City of New York, and Japan.
- corobo 10y ago
  In the middle of nowhere (Stafford, England) we have a mix of the lot. Here we have standard crossings that will never be anything but green (for traffic) without a button press. There's also T-junctions here that toggle between multiple roads that insert a pedestrian crossing into the cycle when the button is pressed, otherwise they'll just toggle between the roads as normal. Then we also have Y-junctions where the pedestrian light is green when the opposite road light is green. The buttons might speed up the cycle there but I've never seen any evidence of it doing so.

sitharus 10y ago

In New Zealand most of the pedestrian crossings don't show any lights until someone pushes the button. Occasionally someone will stand at the lights staring at a completely unilluminated crossing light until someone else pushes the button. Handily it means if the light is on it will change.

phire 10y ago
Yeah, the 'don't walk' light doesn't illuminate until you press the button, there are even some pedestrian only lights where you must both press the button and stay standing on a mat, otherwise the light will not change. I've never seen a traffic light in New Zealand that won't change it cycle in some way during at least some part of the day when that button is pressed. During peak hours there are many traffic lights where the cycle doesn't change at all when you press the button, other than show the walk. Most other traffic lights modify their cycle slightly, with red turning lights to prevent drivers from turning across the crossing pedestrians. The button is only truly important outside of peak hours, when the traffic lights operate on sensors. And the cycles for cars are often so short that a pedestrians can't actually cross the road in time. So pressing the button not long makes the cycle change, but lengthens the cycle.