6 ms·

What does it even mean for a processor to "not support Windows 7"? Does this mean it's not fully x86 backward compatible, or is this just marketing speak for "w

by smlacy 10y ago

What does it even mean for a processor to "not support Windows 7"? Does this mean it's not fully x86 backward compatible, or is this just marketing speak for "we have a strategic alliance with Microsoft, and they don't want you to run Windows 7, so we've put hooks into our hardware to prevent it"

sliverstorm 10y ago
Poking around online, it seems kind of like it will run Windows 7, but will never receive updates. “Windows 7 was designed nearly 10 years ago before any x86/x64 SOCs existed. For Windows 7 to run on any modern silicon, device drivers and firmware need to emulate Windows 7’s expectations for interrupt processing, bus support, and power states, which is challenging for WiFi, graphics, security, and more. As partners make customizations to legacy device drivers, services, and firmware settings, customers are likely to see regressions with Windows 7 ongoing servicing.” There might also be hot new important and/or whizz-bang features on new silicon that Windows 7 does not support and Microsoft doesn't want to support on 7.
- fla 10y ago
  Ok so the real explanation is that Windows 7 will not support the new Intel chip. Not the other way around.
grapeshot 10y ago
It's going to be very difficult to get Windows 7 working if Intel won't release things like USB or video drivers for it. There are already problems with Skylake where you'll do a fresh install of Windows 7 and none of your USB ports or network devices will work because they require newer drivers. Microsoft is doing their best to drive everyone to Windows 10 by not doing another service pack or releasing updated ISOs.
- georgyo 10y ago
  Intel has no reason to not release those drivers for it. Windows might not ship the drivers themselves, or make it "just work." But that's not in Intel's interest, they want to sell chips. They don't care what you run on it, and will support whatever has a large enough install base. Microsoft is the one not doing the supporting. Which means that if something doesn't work, and you create an issue with them (think enterprise customers) their official response is going to be that you need to upgrade. This is perfectly reasonable and Apple does this all the time. There is no reason why older iDevices can't install newer IOS, besides pushing people to upgrade. I don't see Windows 7 "not working" with Kaby Lake. Maybe things that require deeper OS support, like Optane as DDR chips, or booting off Optane. Maybe Thunderbolt 3 won't work right. But for the most part, most things will work just fine. Think of it this way, if OSes had to actively support new chipsets, you would need to buy/get new install disks with every release. That just doesn't happen.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    Linux definitely does have to get updates for new chipsets, mostly around power management features. iGPUs also tend to get updated, which needs new drivers. Old kernels will still run, but they will use more power than necessary and not have access to many new features.
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    Indeed. In the past when I've needed to add support for something during installation, I've never had a problem slipstreaming it in.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  It's more than that. Windows 7 doesn't natively support XHCI (USB3) and Intel dropped EHCI support in Skylake. EHCI was expected to be dropped for a long time from hardware support since modern Operating Systems have supported XHCI for quite sometime.
grobbles 10y ago
The article seems to blame Intel for this. Intel has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the dictum was by Microsoft and primarily relates to support. They want new computers shipping only with the latest OS, and as a line in the sand they won't support you if you run older OSs.
mtgx 10y ago
Here's AMD chance to say that it will support Windows 7 on its Zen and Zen+ processors.
benaadams 10y ago
Windows comes with patches for the CPUs like https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3064209 https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3064209 Probably means there won't be any for < Win10
- 4ad 10y ago
  That's not a "patch for the CPU", that's a microcode update. Both the CPU, and Windows work just fine without it.
makomk 10y ago
It means that it's not fully compatible with the existing PC architecture in terms of aspects like power management, peripherals, etc. Skylake was the same to some extent and it apparently caused really obnoxious, hard-to-fix compatibility issues with Linux too. I'm not sure those have been fully dealt with even now.
cptskippy 10y ago
Intel removed EHCI support for USB in it's chips with Skylake in favor of xHCI. This has been a long time coming and not a malicious or insidious act. Windows 7 doesn't natively have XHCI support and Microsoft isn't adding features to Windows 7. So, on Skylake, you can't install Windows 7 via USB and you can't use a USB keyboard or mouse during installation because the USB drivers are incompatible. I suspect there are many other incompatibilities that exist and Microsoft has just drawn a line in the sand. Hardware and software don't always evolve in lockstep. Sometimes new hardware arrives that breaks something or it doesn't keep up with the evolution of software. Microsoft has taken somewhat bizarre actions in the past to correct this situation when it happens. In the 90s just a year after Windows 95 was launched you saw USB, AGP, UDMA, PCI and other hardware advances come to market. Windows 95 supported none of it. They released Windows 95 OSR2 to OEMs to add support for all the new hardware. Windows 98 was a long way out and they needed to take action to support new hardware or face being displaced in the market. With all of the hardware advances of the late 90s and the rapid decline of the 16bit CPU, ISA, and a lot of other legacy systems, Microsoft wanted to make a clean break in the 00s. Windows XP wasn't going to support any of the old cruft of the 80s and early 90s. The problem was that in the years leading up to XP, OEMs refused to start shipping PCs that met the minimum requirements. They were still shipping with legacy hardware that wasn't compatible. So Microsoft stopped shipping Windows 98 and instead replaced it with the crap fest known as Windows ME. WinME was a rebranded Win98 with one key difference, it had all of the "legacy" drivers removed giving it the same minimum specs as WinXP. Unfortunately some of that legacy was so ingrained that WinME was incredibly unstable.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  No way to add/override driver on pre-install stage ? (memories of 2K era setups)
  - 4ad 10y ago
    Yes, you can still add drivers, however, someone (Intel probably) would have to release those drivers for Windows 7. If they are built for Windows 10 and use Windows 10 kernel-mode APIs, they won't work on Windows 7. However, I don't think Intel won't build drivers for Windows 7. It's against their own interest. Intel just wants to sell hardware.

by smlacy 10y ago

sliverstorm 10y ago

Poking around online, it seems kind of like it will run Windows 7, but will never receive updates. “Windows 7 was designed nearly 10 years ago before any x86/x64 SOCs existed. For Windows 7 to run on any modern silicon, device drivers and firmware need to emulate Windows 7’s expectations for interrupt processing, bus support, and power states, which is challenging for WiFi, graphics, security, and more. As partners make customizations to legacy device drivers, services, and firmware settings, customers are likely to see regressions with Windows 7 ongoing servicing.” There might also be hot new important and/or whizz-bang features on new silicon that Windows 7 does not support and Microsoft doesn't want to support on 7.

fla 10y ago
Ok so the real explanation is that Windows 7 will not support the new Intel chip. Not the other way around.

grapeshot 10y ago

It's going to be very difficult to get Windows 7 working if Intel won't release things like USB or video drivers for it. There are already problems with Skylake where you'll do a fresh install of Windows 7 and none of your USB ports or network devices will work because they require newer drivers. Microsoft is doing their best to drive everyone to Windows 10 by not doing another service pack or releasing updated ISOs.

georgyo 10y ago
Intel has no reason to not release those drivers for it. Windows might not ship the drivers themselves, or make it "just work." But that's not in Intel's interest, they want to sell chips. They don't care what you run on it, and will support whatever has a large enough install base. Microsoft is the one not doing the supporting. Which means that if something doesn't work, and you create an issue with them (think enterprise customers) their official response is going to be that you need to upgrade. This is perfectly reasonable and Apple does this all the time. There is no reason why older iDevices can't install newer IOS, besides pushing people to upgrade. I don't see Windows 7 "not working" with Kaby Lake. Maybe things that require deeper OS support, like Optane as DDR chips, or booting off Optane. Maybe Thunderbolt 3 won't work right. But for the most part, most things will work just fine. Think of it this way, if OSes had to actively support new chipsets, you would need to buy/get new install disks with every release. That just doesn't happen.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  Linux definitely does have to get updates for new chipsets, mostly around power management features. iGPUs also tend to get updated, which needs new drivers. Old kernels will still run, but they will use more power than necessary and not have access to many new features.
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  Indeed. In the past when I've needed to add support for something during installation, I've never had a problem slipstreaming it in.
cptskippy 10y ago
It's more than that. Windows 7 doesn't natively support XHCI (USB3) and Intel dropped EHCI support in Skylake. EHCI was expected to be dropped for a long time from hardware support since modern Operating Systems have supported XHCI for quite sometime.

grobbles 10y ago

The article seems to blame Intel for this. Intel has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the dictum was by Microsoft and primarily relates to support. They want new computers shipping only with the latest OS, and as a line in the sand they won't support you if you run older OSs.

mtgx 10y ago

Here's AMD chance to say that it will support Windows 7 on its Zen and Zen+ processors.

benaadams 10y ago

Windows comes with patches for the CPUs like https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3064209 https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3064209 Probably means there won't be any for < Win10

4ad 10y ago
That's not a "patch for the CPU", that's a microcode update. Both the CPU, and Windows work just fine without it.

makomk 10y ago

It means that it's not fully compatible with the existing PC architecture in terms of aspects like power management, peripherals, etc. Skylake was the same to some extent and it apparently caused really obnoxious, hard-to-fix compatibility issues with Linux too. I'm not sure those have been fully dealt with even now.

cptskippy 10y ago

Intel removed EHCI support for USB in it's chips with Skylake in favor of xHCI. This has been a long time coming and not a malicious or insidious act. Windows 7 doesn't natively have XHCI support and Microsoft isn't adding features to Windows 7. So, on Skylake, you can't install Windows 7 via USB and you can't use a USB keyboard or mouse during installation because the USB drivers are incompatible. I suspect there are many other incompatibilities that exist and Microsoft has just drawn a line in the sand. Hardware and software don't always evolve in lockstep. Sometimes new hardware arrives that breaks something or it doesn't keep up with the evolution of software. Microsoft has taken somewhat bizarre actions in the past to correct this situation when it happens. In the 90s just a year after Windows 95 was launched you saw USB, AGP, UDMA, PCI and other hardware advances come to market. Windows 95 supported none of it. They released Windows 95 OSR2 to OEMs to add support for all the new hardware. Windows 98 was a long way out and they needed to take action to support new hardware or face being displaced in the market. With all of the hardware advances of the late 90s and the rapid decline of the 16bit CPU, ISA, and a lot of other legacy systems, Microsoft wanted to make a clean break in the 00s. Windows XP wasn't going to support any of the old cruft of the 80s and early 90s. The problem was that in the years leading up to XP, OEMs refused to start shipping PCs that met the minimum requirements. They were still shipping with legacy hardware that wasn't compatible. So Microsoft stopped shipping Windows 98 and instead replaced it with the crap fest known as Windows ME. WinME was a rebranded Win98 with one key difference, it had all of the "legacy" drivers removed giving it the same minimum specs as WinXP. Unfortunately some of that legacy was so ingrained that WinME was incredibly unstable.

agumonkey 10y ago
No way to add/override driver on pre-install stage ? (memories of 2K era setups)
- 4ad 10y ago
  Yes, you can still add drivers, however, someone (Intel probably) would have to release those drivers for Windows 7. If they are built for Windows 10 and use Windows 10 kernel-mode APIs, they won't work on Windows 7. However, I don't think Intel won't build drivers for Windows 7. It's against their own interest. Intel just wants to sell hardware.