4 ms·

Do all large US tech companies have employment policies where a long-term employee (who got a raise and promotion a few weeks earlier) can be forced out without

Do all large US tech companies have employment policies where a long-term employee (who got a raise and promotion a few weeks earlier) can be forced out without even any prior hint of a performance issue? I understand California is an 'at-will' state, but I'd think that the wealthy tech companies who compete to attract talent with free food and gyms would have slightly better management policies (at least for the long-term engineering staff) Though given this particular individual apparently was an extremely early Facebook employee (likely >100M of vested stock options), he doesn't need the job security to afford rental contract in San Francisco (first month rent + 2 month security deposit, which can be a hefty sum in SF)

brianwawok 10y ago
Most companies can fire you for any reason and do. Many take more times to dot their Is, but not all do. This is when FB was growing very fast so I doubt they had time. OTOH I bet being fired at Microsoft takes longer.
sawthat 10y ago
At-will means at-will. That said, larger companies generally have policies that require documentation and a "personal improvement plan" (PIP) before termination for cause. This is mostly to provide documentation in the event of a wrongful termination suit. However, generally if an employee is considered a serious liability (they have hurt or threatened another employee) they can be fired immediately. Startups tend to be a little more aggressive on termination because they can't afford to pay a salary to someone for months hoping they improve.
- asuffield 10y ago
  > This is mostly to provide documentation in the event of a wrongful termination suit. While it might serve that purpose, it's primarily to make sure that middle-management takes reasonable steps to let people correct and thinks the decision through before acting. Nobody wants to work in a place where people get surprisingly or randomly fired, or where a manager is firing all the people they don't like. Having processes (mostly) prevents that sort of thing from happening.
pkteison 10y ago
Yes, surprise firing is technically an option for almost all employees, including the long-term engineering staff talent at wealthy tech companies. It's reciprocal - the employee can quit with no notice also. A very very few public faces, world famous leaders in their field, will negotiate different deals - but the general long-term engineering staff isn't at that level. I think it's not a point of competition, especially for the talent worth competing for, for several reasons: 1) People don't value the protection as much as they value the freedom of being able to quit, and you only get one or the other. Basically: "I'm good at my job, why do I need protection? But another offer might come along and I might want to leave." 2) People believe it won't happen to them / they have control over it. (I think this is generally true - don't do boneheaded things, keep being good at your job, you won't get fired.) 3) I prefer working somewhere that has the ability to fire bad coworkers. It leads to less bad coworkers. 4) Surprise firings are not really common, and when they do happen, the examples seem to make sense - people get fired for doing obviously bad things (or for being horrible, but that is usually a drawn out process and not the surprise described here.) 5) If you don't announce it, it will be difficult for your next employer to learn the circumstances, so you can always just get another job. (Companies in America tend not to answer questions about why prior employees left, it's mostly up to you to spin the story in the next interview. Most companies (in tech at least) don't even bother checking references because it's unlikely to be productive.) 6) The worst cases of fired-for-no-good-reason are already legally protected If it was extremely common then this would probably change, but so far in my career it just hasn't seemed like a big concern.
- asuffield 10y ago
  I'll just point out that in the UK and most of Europe we don't see a reason why this should be reciprocal. You can quit at any time, but you also can't be fired without a reason if you've worked at a company for more than 1-2 years. It doesn't stop people from firing bad coworkers, and it appears to have no negative effects on employment.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  > It's reciprocal - the employee can quit with no notice also. Except it's really not. The potential consequences for an employee quitting without notice are far greater than the consequences to the company of summarily firing someone. And, the company has far more power in the employee/employer relationship the vast majority of the time, because people typically have one job and companies have tons of employees. People also tend not to have the kind of savings in the bank that can let them just shrug off a surprise firing. So, no, it's not reciprocal due to the power imbalance inherent in the relationship.

brianwawok 10y ago

Most companies can fire you for any reason and do. Many take more times to dot their Is, but not all do. This is when FB was growing very fast so I doubt they had time. OTOH I bet being fired at Microsoft takes longer.

sawthat 10y ago

At-will means at-will. That said, larger companies generally have policies that require documentation and a "personal improvement plan" (PIP) before termination for cause. This is mostly to provide documentation in the event of a wrongful termination suit. However, generally if an employee is considered a serious liability (they have hurt or threatened another employee) they can be fired immediately. Startups tend to be a little more aggressive on termination because they can't afford to pay a salary to someone for months hoping they improve.

asuffield 10y ago
> This is mostly to provide documentation in the event of a wrongful termination suit. While it might serve that purpose, it's primarily to make sure that middle-management takes reasonable steps to let people correct and thinks the decision through before acting. Nobody wants to work in a place where people get surprisingly or randomly fired, or where a manager is firing all the people they don't like. Having processes (mostly) prevents that sort of thing from happening.

pkteison 10y ago

Yes, surprise firing is technically an option for almost all employees, including the long-term engineering staff talent at wealthy tech companies. It's reciprocal - the employee can quit with no notice also. A very very few public faces, world famous leaders in their field, will negotiate different deals - but the general long-term engineering staff isn't at that level. I think it's not a point of competition, especially for the talent worth competing for, for several reasons: 1) People don't value the protection as much as they value the freedom of being able to quit, and you only get one or the other. Basically: "I'm good at my job, why do I need protection? But another offer might come along and I might want to leave." 2) People believe it won't happen to them / they have control over it. (I think this is generally true - don't do boneheaded things, keep being good at your job, you won't get fired.) 3) I prefer working somewhere that has the ability to fire bad coworkers. It leads to less bad coworkers. 4) Surprise firings are not really common, and when they do happen, the examples seem to make sense - people get fired for doing obviously bad things (or for being horrible, but that is usually a drawn out process and not the surprise described here.) 5) If you don't announce it, it will be difficult for your next employer to learn the circumstances, so you can always just get another job. (Companies in America tend not to answer questions about why prior employees left, it's mostly up to you to spin the story in the next interview. Most companies (in tech at least) don't even bother checking references because it's unlikely to be productive.) 6) The worst cases of fired-for-no-good-reason are already legally protected If it was extremely common then this would probably change, but so far in my career it just hasn't seemed like a big concern.

asuffield 10y ago
I'll just point out that in the UK and most of Europe we don't see a reason why this should be reciprocal. You can quit at any time, but you also can't be fired without a reason if you've worked at a company for more than 1-2 years. It doesn't stop people from firing bad coworkers, and it appears to have no negative effects on employment.
pmiller2 10y ago
> It's reciprocal - the employee can quit with no notice also. Except it's really not. The potential consequences for an employee quitting without notice are far greater than the consequences to the company of summarily firing someone. And, the company has far more power in the employee/employer relationship the vast majority of the time, because people typically have one job and companies have tons of employees. People also tend not to have the kind of savings in the bank that can let them just shrug off a surprise firing. So, no, it's not reciprocal due to the power imbalance inherent in the relationship.